Hunting - Crossbows

[LongBlade]

Ok, then I stand corrected. ...there's no MG hunting in the USA because if you hunt down and kill animals with MGs you just don't call it a hunt. That's of course an elegant way to make sure that such things don't happen in the US. Ok you convinced me. I repeat, in the USA there are no folks who hunt and while doing so wear military camo, use laser pointers and night googles or directing their own movie in the Apocalypse Now Ride of the Valkyries style. Sitting in a helicopter, shooting animals, who run in all directions at full speed and panic, with a MG often only wounding these animals while smiling into a cam, wearing military style outfits and listening to AC/DC is something different than a hunt. Got it.

What I think is going on here is that we have a misunderstanding of context. It's technically "hunting." But it is also highly illegal for any creature other than wild boar.

Also, I'm not sure what your point is. Maybe there is an exception to any rule?

[Grimnirsson]

Also, I'm not sure what your point is.

My point is that a statement like this...

I think someone has a serious misconception of hunting in America if they honestly think guys go out there with MG (machine guns) blazing.  Seriously.  Stop watching Hollywood movies.  They are complete trash in every area regarding to reality.

...is in fact wrong. It doesn't matter whether you are calling hunting wild boars a hunt or a party, it doesn't matter whether hunting with automatic weapons is legal or not, the point is that in the USA are folks who enjoy killing with these weapons, who don't give a shit whether the animal is suffering or not, who play soldier while killing animals and who are technically hunting them. My point is that to pretend it is not so is false.

[LongBlade]

Also, I'm not sure what your point is.

My point is that a statement like this...

I think someone has a serious misconception of hunting in America if they honestly think guys go out there with MG (machine guns) blazing.  Seriously.  Stop watching Hollywood movies.  They are complete trash in every area regarding to reality.

...is in fact wrong. It doesn't matter whether you are calling hunting wild boars a hunt or a party, it doesn't matter whether hunting with automatic weapons is legal or not, the point is that in the USA are folks who enjoy killing with these weapons, who don't give a shit whether the animal is suffering or not, who play soldier while killing animals and who are technically hunting them. My point is that to pretend it is not so is false.

Ah. Animal suffering.

I'm not sure you understand how game conservation works.

[GDS_Starfury]

I think its a case where Grim just doesnt get the real problem that wild hogs pose in parts of the US.  they breed like rabbits, destroy crops and are very dangerous because of their size and aggression.

[Grimnirsson]

Ah. Animal suffering.

Interesting and quite telling remark...

I'm not sure you understand how game conservation works.

I assume that only the USA has regulations of this kind then and that e.g. Germany is overrun with wild animals because we don't understand how game conservation works - with MGs from a helicopter. Your post here suggests that game conservation is only possible if 'animal suffering' is to be ignored and that because wild boars are doing damage to farmland everything is allowed. I just disagree with this, is all.

[LongBlade]

I think its a case where Grim just doesnt get the real problem that wild hogs pose in parts of the US.  they breed like rabbits, destroy crops and are very dangerous because of their size and aggression.

I think it goes further.

[Grimnirsson]

GDS,

I think its a case where Grim just doesnt get the real problem that wild hogs pose in parts of the US.  they breed like rabbits, destroy crops and are very dangerous because of their size and aggression.

I am aware of this but my initial reply was about the statement no one is hunting with MGs in the USA. We are now slowly slipping into a complete different topic. If someone says 'well, these boars must be killed no matter what way because of the damage they do and some do this indeed with MGs in the US' I can still find this the wrong way or even disgusting but it's at least consistent with reality. Which was what I said in one of my former postings here.

[Grimnirsson]

I think it goes further.

Enlighten me please...

[LongBlade]

Ah. Animal suffering.

Interesting and quite telling remark...

I'm not sure you understand how game conservation works.

I assume that only the USA has regulations of this kind then and that e.g. Germany is overrun with wild animals because we don't understand how game conservation works - with MGs from a helicopter. Your post here suggests that game conservation is only possible if 'animal suffering' is to be ignored and that because wild boars are doing damage to farmland everything is allowed. I just disagree with this, is all.

I still don't follow your line of thinking. Animal suffering can come from disease, natural predation, natural heat and cold. Left unchecked, animal populations can get out of control and lead to greater suffering - both human and animal.

The fact that you assume those issues aren't factored into the US's conservation efforts suggests you don't fully understand the issue.

Sure, there are a few ignorant people who probably don't care about animal suffering when they hunt. And your point is?

[bayonetbrant]

Without trying to put words into people's mouths, I think Grim's issue is that in Germany they're able to execute animal conservation efforts w/o resorting to automatic weapons or helicopters or whatever means he's objecting to.  Sounds like the ends are OK (control animal pests) but the means are of concern.

LB's counterpoint is that sometimes we do things differently in the US.  One reason is the sheer difference in scale.  We've got a helluva lot more ground to cover in the US than in Germany, and a helicopter can make a huge amount of difference.  As to automatic weapons?  LB's right to point out that under certain circumstances they are legal in the US, and can be used in the removal of nuisance critters.  Could you 'hunt' rats with them?  Sure - but it's kinds of inefficient.  Boar often take multiple shots to bring down anyway, so whether it's one trigger pull or five, it's still five bullets in the critter.

Now, Grim, if this is a back-door way into opening an argument about gun control, please take it to the gun control thread and revisit your points there.  No one is telling you that you can't hold those opinions or discuss them as openly as you want.  But for the sake of forum organization and flame war control, we try to keep those arguments contained to that thread.

If the concern is animal suffering, then I'm not sure what we can really discuss here.  Getting shot hurts.  So does getting bit by a komodo dragon and dying of poison over 3 days while they watch.  So does watching people go hungry when their crops are destroyed by wild boar.  I don't know where you can truly draw the line on how to keep animals from suffering in open environments.

Just remember that people are seldom reasoned out of positions they weren't reasoned into, so if these are truly deeply held beliefs then we may need to just agree to disagree and get back to talking about slinging dice.

Either way, Windi was seeking advice on crossbows for hunting, and (I suspect) not intending to open a discussion about the ethics of automatic fire in chasing around animal pests.

[LongBlade]

Either way, Windi was seeking advice on crossbows for hunting, and (I suspect) not intending to open a discussion about the ethics of automatic fire in chasing around animal pests.

And I found out that for $70 I can get a nice spear!

[GDS_Starfury]

well for a little more money then that you can get a .458 Hog gun.   8)



and while it looks very automatic and assaulty its only semi-auto.   ;)

[Grimnirsson]

I still don't follow your line of thinking.

As I don't follow yours...

Animal suffering can come from disease, natural predation, natural heat and cold. Left unchecked, animal populations can get out of control and lead to greater suffering - both human and animal.

So what? I was not discussing the need of regulating the animal population, I was saying some folks in your country do hunt with MGs. Someone chimed in and said that is just a Hollywood movie myth. So I presented a movie picture and a movie (with a cool soundtrack)...then you jumped in and said something like 'ahahaha...nono...you don't get it...killing boars with MGs is not hunting! It's just...no matter... it's not hunting, only technically it is hunting, but not real hunting...' and then you shifted the topic from (technically) hunting with MGs to animal population regulation. And this is apparently done with MGs, actually based on all the 'cool' youtube videos more often than not done with MGs (and helicopters of course, because it so nicely combines effectiveness and fun).

The fact that you assume those issues aren't factored into the US's conservation efforts suggests you don't fully understand the issue.

I assume exactly...nothing. And I don't get what you are talking about...is your sentence above to mean that the fun helicopter rides with MGs is the result of 'those features factored into the US's conservation efforts'?  ???

Sure, there are a few ignorant people who probably don't care about animal suffering when they hunt. And your point is?

That we were talking about something different before you changed the topic.

@bayonetbrant,

I think Grim's issue is that in Germany they're able to execute animal conservation efforts w/o resorting to automatic weapons or helicopters or whatever means he's objecting to.  Sounds like the ends are OK (control animal pests) but the means are of concern.

Yes, I thought my English is good enough actually that this isn't so hard to get across.

We've got a helluva lot more ground to cover in the US than in Germany, and a helicopter can make a huge amount of difference.

That doesn't mean that 'everything goes' is the right approach when you go hunting imho.

If the concern is animal suffering, then I'm not sure what we can really discuss here.  Getting shot hurts.  So does getting bit by a komodo dragon and dying of poison over 3 days while they watch.  So does watching people go hungry when their crops are destroyed by wild boar.  I don't know where you can truly draw the line on how to keep animals from suffering in open environments.

Getting shot hurts, true. Getting shot by some dude with a MG who tries to hit and kill while sitting in a helicopter and smiling into the cam does hurt a lot more and is just plain wrong. Hurting and killing animals this way while making such 'cool' videos is wrong. And I suppose - correct me if I am wrong - that these folks in their helicopters can be legally everybody who owns a weapon. You don't have to be someone 'official' like a forester or such. That opens the door for these fun party rides I find disgusting. But let me repeat, I was simply saying that this sort of 'hunting' exists and someone said, no it does not. That was/is the point of debate. That I have an opinion about that doesn't really matter, I was just stating this 'hunting style' is a fact not a Hollywood movie myth.

Now, Grim, if this is a back-door way into opening an argument about gun control

It is not, neither through the front nor the back door - this has nothing to do with gun-control. Jeez, it's not always about your holy right of owning guns - this thread started about 'crossbow hunting' and I said, I don't think it's a good way to hunt - like hunting with MGs is not a good way to hunt, or using dynamite is not a good way to fish. The follwoing postings slowly drifted off into a complete different topic.

Just remember that people are seldom reasoned out of positions they weren't reasoned into, so if these are truly deeply held beliefs then we may need to just agree to disagree and get back to talking about slinging dice.

I agree.

[LongBlade]

well for a little more money then that you can get a .458 Hog gun.   8)



and while it looks very automatic and assaulty its only semi-auto.   ;)

.458 probably requires more man that I can bring to the table. Besides, you need to have a little bacon left over to eat. That's not likely to leave a lot left.

[GDS_Starfury]

I was saying some folks in your country do hunt with MGs. Someone chimed in and said that is just a Hollywood movie myth. So I presented a movie picture and a movie

what you may consider hunting is thought of as pest control here.  only an idiot would hunt deer or squirrel or whatever with a MG.  there is a difference and I think youre taking the hog issue as representing the mainstream attitude of American hunters.