Kickstarter Huh?

[Arctic Blast]

And just to be totally clear, I'm not necessarily against Kickstarter. I just have some trepidation about it, particularly projects being run by inexperienced people.

[Gusington]

^You and I are on the same page. I have no issue giving to Wasteland 2, but it's the only project I have donated to so far. See Toonces' sig for more details.

[son_of_montfort]

Yes Arctic, but no money will have been charged for that train wreck of an MMORPG project, as it won't reach its goal.

I hadn't heard that the Glory to Rome Black Box had hit production problems, I wondered what happened with the project but I didn't like the art so I never supported it. The thing is, with board games, Kickstarter or no, delays in shipping are relatively common. The benefit here is that the people will eventually get the game (which would not have been produced without Kickstarter) even though not in a timely fashion. Even the big producers, Fantasy Flight Games, has 4 month delays (they just don't update people with any information regarding production, printing, shipping, and arrival until it is almost in stores).

I agree, Kickstarter is a caveat emptor situation and one should only choose to support projects that are done by familiar and trusted faces. But also Kickstarter is a system of fairly limited loss - most normal fans only pledge $15-50 or with some boardgames $50-100.

[Arctic Blast]

Yes Arctic, but no money will have been charged for that train wreck of an MMORPG project, as it won't reach its goal.

I hadn't heard that the Glory to Rome Black Box had hit production problems, I wondered what happened with the project but I didn't like the art so I never supported it. The thing is, with board games, Kickstarter or no, delays in shipping are relatively common. The benefit here is that the people will eventually get the game (which would not have been produced without Kickstarter) even though not in a timely fashion. Even the big producers, Fantasy Flight Games, has 4 month delays (they just don't update people with any information regarding production, printing, shipping, and arrival until it is almost in stores).

I agree, Kickstarter is a caveat emptor situation and one should only choose to support projects that are done by familiar and trusted faces. But also Kickstarter is a system of fairly limited loss - most normal fans only pledge $15-50 or with some boardgames $50-100.

Initially the new version of GtR ran in to production problems. It was due to arrive last Christmas. In late December, when some people on BGG and Kickstarter began asking what was up, the head of Cambridge Games Factory pops up and says that they didn't get the new art to their printer in time, so it was no go. He didn't say anything until he was pretty much forced to. And he admitted that the primary reason for the missed date was that that they hadn't been corresponding with their printer for MONTHS. Nobody had bothered to check in and make sure that things were proceeding. They weren't...the printer had a number of questions that apparently went totally unanswered.

Now, the game has been printed and boxed up for a couple of months. It's no longer a printing problem, it's a "We have no clue how to get this out of China" problem. Part of the issue is that the same head of CGF has been stuck working long hours at his day job. Now, nobody in their right mind is going to argue that he should ignore that job. But at the same time, they got tens of thousands of dollars in Kickstarter money, and he's apparently so busy that he doesn't even post on BGG anymore. The only communication is from an unpaid lackey. And they've missed a second release date by a mile. They now promise May to June, but considering it's May and the shipment hasn't happened (aside from Origin orders, which are being air shipped. And I'm sure that was a lovely little unexpected expense), it doesn't seem very likely.

Now, this doesn't mean that CGF are bad guys. It DOES point to the fact that A LOT of these projects are being run by people without the faintest idea of how to deal with the day to day part of running their idea AS A BUSINESS. The fact that nobody apparently had figured on having to transport the finished product or put much thought in to it is, frankly, ridiculous. Major game publishers also suffer from delays...those delays don't tend to be because someone forgot to check in with the printing company for several months.

As for that insane MMO, my question there is about what I see as some very dubious 'donations'. I can't see any reason that 3 people would have bid $10,000 for that mess, and yet there are 3 bids sitting there for that amount. What is to prevent someone from pledging a maximum amount or two for their own project to make it look like it has a better chance of success? After all, if it doesn't reach the required level, it costs them nothing. And they can pull their 'pledge' at any time to avoid any actual cost to themselves, or even use the funds contributed by other, more legitimate backers to cover the cost. What is to prevent someone from doing something along those lines to absolutely game the entire system?

I have believed from the beginning that there will be some failures (there have to be. Not every funded project is going to succeed, just like not everything in any other line of business is going to succeed). But while other people are more concerned about unscrupulous types using the system to defraud people, my worry has always been totally well meaning, but totally unprepared, types who get their project funded and then don't have the tools, skills or experience to pull it off. And that might actually be more damaging to the whole concept in the long run.

[Jack Nastyface]

Not to diss the OP...but I think some of things that a traditional "rational, logical" ROI evaluation of Kickstarter misses is the very thing that more-often-than-not proves to be critical element in brand / product success:  participation, loyalty and community identity.  Kickstarter is "cool" because it allows participation at a very early (and therefore critically important) stage in a product life-cycle, and usually for very niche products where brand loyalty and identity are quite high.

Not to get all Seth Godin on yer ass, but tribes (and therefore tribe association and totems) are an increasing potent factor in product success.  The value ascertained through traditional ROI (and even CBA) is somewhat elusive for niche or cache products.  For example, there really was no ROI for a social website that allowed Harvard students to message each other on where to get drunk on Friday night.  Nevertheless, Facebook somehow caught on, and became a major brand.

Now, granted, one could argue (and I'm sure you will) that facebook and twitter didn't require any sort of capital contribution by its users or prospective audience, whereas Kickstarter does.  However, I would also argue that making a contribution to a kickstarter project allows someone to contribute not only financially but also in spirit to a product that they may believe in.  Call this concept what you may - altuistic capitalism, philanthropic investement, risk-less venture capitalism - it is obvious that more than a few of us are willing to help out a start-up concept not in expectation of great reward, but because it provides us with a tangible sense of well-intention action.  I would also argue that given the choice between kicking in $20 to help develop Ogre 2.0, and posting the kind of stuff that one tends to see on facebook, I would almost certainly risk a couple of sawbucks.

[son_of_montfort]

^ A good and deep commentary Jack.

Arctic,
The irony in your story is that Cambridge Game Factory is not exactly a "newbie" operation, they are the original publishers of Glory to Rome (and several other games). Now maybe they have never had to deal with the sheer numbers of orders as with the Kickstarter project, but they *should* know how to deal with print runs and distribution. Are you sure it was CGF that ran the Kickstarter? IIRC, it was some Polish guy who did the art and got the nod from CGF. Very strange that CGF, who has been printing GtR for decades now, wouldn't know how to effectively get product from the printer to the consumers.

As to the MMORPG, I don't think there is anything stopping a person from creating a fake account and dumping money into a project to grease the wheels. But... it didn't see to work for that guy. Yes, inexperience developers may not be able to deliver adequately (I'm a little worried about that StarDrive project, which seems to have gone silent). But the investments are typically small.

Jack... err... the buy-in for "Ogre 2.0" is a bit more than $20, at least if you actually want a copy of the game. Try five times that amount. ;)

[airboy]

This is from the GameBanshee interview with Brian Fargo about Wasteland 2.

GB: Unfortunately, role-playing games have lost much of their original identity in recent years, thanks in part to the popularity of first-person action RPGs. How do you convince a newer or younger RPG fan who has grown accustomed to the action-focused titles to give Wasteland 2 a shot?

Brian: Well here is the beauty of fan funding... we don't have to convince some younger RPG player of anything. I am making this game for the wonderful fans who put their money behind us and not some nebulous group of new people. Let's make the game they all expect and let the chips fall where they may. There is just no way I'm going to consider anything that could let down the core.

***************************
Again - I see the great deal for developers.  I also see how this makes games that are not profitable in a traditional funding perspective become viable via this method of raising capital.

Brian Fargo is stating in the interview that he wants a turn-based, party oriented, CRPG that is isomorphic.  Given Fargo's track record of Fallout 1, Fallout 2 and Wasteland this is pretty exciting to me personally.

Hope this works out.

Fargo is defining his core audience as those who put in the startup capital.  He is aiming at a specific, narrower market niche instead of appealing to the broad market of RPGs that we have today (great graphics, single person, not turn based, and largely linear and often (think Dragon Age & the Witcher and to a lesser extent Vampire Bloodlines) with only one path to follow.

Being an enthusiast of the Spiderweb software games currently, I really hope Fargo makes a bunch of money and will continue to create good product.

[Gusington]

^So did you donate?

[airboy]

I did not donate.  Nor will I in the future.  I don't provide charity for potential projects.

I still hope that it works out and will appreciate those who paid to make it happen.

[Gusington]

Will you purchase Wasteland 2 when it's released?

[Windigo]

Absent of any assurance of the project being completed, I suppose it's a degree of faith. But I think you're being unnecessarily cynical on not knowing if the developers are who they say they are on the site.

Donors win with the bigger projects on getting a completed game that would not have been completed otherwise, i.e., blocked by traditional publishers.

I have yet to get burned, and I wonder from where this cynicism stems. Are people aware of a project that defrauded its backers? With the notable exception of Steve Jackson's Ogre, I haven't given enough money to one project to get overly burned anyway (and I know Steve Jackson will deliver).

Please note, GMT Games and other war game publishers have been doing this for years, calling it P500.

SJ Games????   You play Ultracorps????????????????????????

[Arctic Blast]

^ A good and deep commentary Jack.

Arctic,
The irony in your story is that Cambridge Game Factory is not exactly a "newbie" operation, they are the original publishers of Glory to Rome (and several other games). Now maybe they have never had to deal with the sheer numbers of orders as with the Kickstarter project, but they *should* know how to deal with print runs and distribution. Are you sure it was CGF that ran the Kickstarter? IIRC, it was some Polish guy who did the art and got the nod from CGF. Very strange that CGF, who has been printing GtR for decades now, wouldn't know how to effectively get product from the printer to the consumers.

As to the MMORPG, I don't think there is anything stopping a person from creating a fake account and dumping money into a project to grease the wheels. But... it didn't see to work for that guy. Yes, inexperience developers may not be able to deliver adequately (I'm a little worried about that StarDrive project, which seems to have gone silent). But the investments are typically small.

Jack... err... the buy-in for "Ogre 2.0" is a bit more than $20, at least if you actually want a copy of the game. Try five times that amount. ;)

Yeah, the more I read in to the GTR Black Box mess, the worse CGF looks. Their Production person left, so they replaced her with someone who doesn't speak Chinese, despite needing to deal with Chinese manufacturers, and has never done import/export or so much as filled out a customs document, despite that being 90% of her job description. Um...just wow.

They did run the Kickstarter themselves. Not sure about this Polish person? Maybe you mean Carl Chudyk, who designed the game? On a completely different note, it actually IS a pretty good card game. You should check it out...the standard version is about $15-$20 online.  ;D

Anyway, let's just put my overall feeling as 'Kickstarter = good idea, but I have concerns'. The next year and a half or so are going to really make it or break it, because there are a LOT of Kickstarted projects due out in that period of time.

[son_of_montfort]

Arctic,

The wife and I love GtR, and I didn't support the KS for the black box because I liked the silly artwork and cheap components more than a "prettied up" version!

I think I was referring to Heiko Günther, (German, not Polish) who seems to be the point man for the art on the black box version. I don't know exactly what Carl's role in the KS was, but I was under the impression that Chudyk rarely messed with GtR anymore and that he just sort of participated when he wished. The story behind CGF is a bit weird, if I remember correctly, but I am still surprised that they are so inept with this black box. I guess they only know how to do low-end level publishing, and granted GtR and Barony are pretty low-tech.

No Windi, the only SJ games I have played is Illuminati and Munchkin. I'm very excited he is going back to Ogre, however.

[Windigo]

@ St. SoM,

Ultracorps is a good MMO turn based wargame though....

[Arctic Blast]

Arctic,

The wife and I love GtR, and I didn't support the KS for the black box because I liked the silly artwork and cheap components more than a "prettied up" version!

Totally agree. I don't actually like the new 'serious' look. I also kind of question how it's suddenly worth $50 a copy.

No Windi, the only SJ games I have played is Illuminati and Munchkin. I'm very excited he is going back to Ogre, however.

I'm hoping he gets back in to Car Wars. It sounds like a series I would be in to, and a new edition run might be something I'd be willing to drop some dollars on.