I withdraw my support for RPS and eat a large slice of humble pie

[Huw the Poo]

Yeah I don't usually say things like this about women, but considering Zoe has used her looks to get where she is, I don't think it's unfair for me to agree that she is in fact a total minger.  The whole affair would be a lot more understandable if she didn't look like a man.

Anyway.

Jarhead, I agree with you.  I hate forced equality.  In the business news there's occasionally some "story" about how few females there are in the boardroom.  Well, so what?  Maybe that's because - SHOCK - there are more men than women capable of doing the job?  That isn't misogyny, that's an honest question/observation.  Businesses are ruthlessly driven by nothing but the pursuit of profit; if a business thought it could make more money by promoting Janet instead of John, it would promote Janet.  End of story.

You just can't force these things.  Men and women are different, have different abilities/desires/needs, and feminists need to learn this basic fact.

[Boggit]

I'd just add that I'm delighted that women enjoy gaming, and I'd encourage more to do so because it's interesting and fun. O0 It's just a pity seeing incidents like this one give a bad press to them. (@Bob - no pun was intended there..., but I'm going to regret that aren't I ;))

[bayonetbrant]

I think the issue is really less about her and more about the web-wide reaction to her. She may not be a great person, but to get hammered thru social media over a game she made for a nonprofit to help people struggle with depression was nuts. And then some dude tweeted her a note that he thought it was a good and useful game, and *he* was attacked by the internet troll brigade.
She might be a twit, and RPS might be inviting scrutiny or scorn for letting personal relationships cloud their coverage. But some of the attacks on her have been waaaay over the top, no matter the context.

I think there's a world of difference between criticizing a website for losing their objectivity, criticizing a game maker for using personal relationships to get ahead, and being threatened with rape just b/c you're a vocal woman game designer

[undercovergeek]

there you go, a reasonable, sensible discussion about women in gaming and game development

why this cant happen anywhere else on the net is beyond me

as i said to Huw on Steam chat - the biggest problem (apart from the white knighting) i have at RPS is the comments section on the articles - its like a pack of wolves, the first comment is always someone deconstructing and pissing on the opinions of the piece and then its someone elses turn:

'I like this game',

'pffft then youre an idiot'

'it doesnt have women'

is on almost every game review

[Jarhead0331]

I think the issue is really less about her and more about the web-wide reaction to her. She may not be a great person, but to get hammered thru social media over a game she made for a nonprofit to help people struggle with depression was nuts. And then some dude tweeted her a note that he thought it was a good and useful game, and *he* was attacked by the internet troll brigade.
She might be a twit, and RPS might be inviting scrutiny or scorn for letting personal relationships cloud their coverage. But some of the attacks on her have been waaaay over the top, no matter the context.

I think there's a world of difference between criticizing a website for losing their objectivity, criticizing a game maker for using personal relationships to get ahead, and being threatened with rape just b/c you're a vocal woman game designer

In case it wasn't totally clear, when I said "whore", I was referring to the political correctness Gestapo,  not to the young lady.

[Boggit]

I think there's a world of difference between criticizing a website for losing their objectivity, criticizing a game maker for using personal relationships to get ahead, and being threatened with rape just b/c you're a vocal woman game designer

I couldn't agree more. O0 That's a disgusting thing to do. >:(

[Huw the Poo]

Brant, that's just the tip of the iceberg.  Zoe is strongly suspected (some would say completely proved although I haven't looked at the evidence much) of being behind some pretty nasty pieces of work such as deliberately sabotaging a game jam and then getting proceeds and donations funneled into her own bank account.  There are other allegations of her fleecing money out of unsuspecting people.

Like I said, I don't know enough about it to comment, but the issue is much more than just Zoe being attacked by the anti-SJW brigade.  A bunch of people telling her that her game is shit happened ages ago - this latest episode was precipitated by her ex boyfriend posting a load of stuff online to show that she cheated on him with game industry types and is generally a shitty person.

(There are plenty of other ramifications to all of this too - Zoe has been a touchstone for it, but the pitchforks are currently pointed at the gaming journalism business as a whole for various reasons)

I plan to write some more on this later.

[bayonetbrant]

Brant, that's just the tip of the iceberg.  Zoe is strongly suspected (some would say completely proved although I haven't looked at the evidence much) of being behind some pretty nasty pieces of work such as deliberately sabotaging a game jam and then getting proceeds and donations funneled into her own bank account.  There are other allegations of her fleecing money out of unsuspecting people.

Oh yeah - I read into part of it, but not that far.  Honestly, I got bored trying to parse thru it.  While the infamous Penny Arcade "Dickwolves" saga was equally convoluted, tracking it never bored me.  This one did.
But ask yourself, if it was a guy that had done all the horible things he'd done, would there be the same level of sexually-charged invective aimed his way?  Would there be the same allegations of sleeping his way to the top if it was "Zeke" and not "Zoe"?  Would the internet troll brigade overload a guy's twitter feed with rape threats and comments about his looks?

Like I said, I don't know enough about it to comment, but the issue is much more than just Zoe being attacked by the anti-SJW brigade.  A bunch of people telling her that her game is shit happened ages ago - this latest episode was precipitated by her ex boyfriend posting a load of stuff online to show that she cheated on him with game industry types and is generally a shitty person.

Again, being a shitty person is a perfectly good reason for someone to dislike you, but the questions from above still stand - would this level of abuse be leveled at a guy in the same circumstances?  I'm not saying she's a saint - clearly far from it.  Moreover, RPS seems to be caught in a corssfire of their own making by letting personal relationships - sexual or otherwise - cloud what they've said about it.

(There are plenty of other ramifications to all of this too - Zoe has been a touchstone for it, but the pitchforks are currently pointed at the gaming journalism business as a whole for various reasons)

I plan to write some more on this later.

I look forward to reading your thoughts on it!

[undercovergeek]

RPS have deleted everything about it

theres one thread left where a guy is asking why they refuse to discuss or allow discussions about it when a male designer got his ass handed to him at RPS when he was accused of rape

jon walkers own twitter feed says if it is discussed any further on RPS you will be banned

its pretty messy

[Huw the Poo]

Brant, just to be clear, I absolutely agree that no game dev should be piled on, regardless of gender.  What bothers me in this latest episode is that people who are asking reasonable questions regarding Zoe's behaviour and that of gaming industry people are being shouted down as "misogynists", i.e. debate is being completely stifled.  Matt Lees - someone I used to respect - wrote a large blog entry yesterday essentially saying "la la la not listening to you, can't be arsed to argue".  As shameful as his stance is, he's actually extraordinary amongst gaming journalists for even making a stance.

Someone on one of the (presumably now deleted) RPS threads summed the situation up excellently, saying that basically all the SJWs (including journos) were quick to flock to Zoe's defense as soon as she was attacked, but it's transpiring that the attacks were justified as more evidence is found of her reprehensible actions and now they don't want to back down because they don't want their SJW movement to take damage, i.e. when they justifiably want to defend the next victim.

To add to this, the whole thing is hypocritical in the extreme, as RPS and several other websites were very quick to spread gossip about Max Temkin being accused of rape despite the fact that it's nothing more than gossip with no charges even being filed, yet none of them will touch this story with a ten foot pole.  So to answer your question (if it was a guy), yes, they would and yes they did, but they won't even acknowledge that they were wrong about Zoe, let alone apologise for any of it.

The wall of silence that the gaming journalism industry is putting up is disturbing, irritating and hypocritical.  Yes, some of the pitchfork mob are being bellends (as are some of the SJW mob) but the people asking reasonable questions are being treated with equal disdain.  That RPS won't even allow discussion of it is just disgusting in my opinion.

[undercovergeek]

bellends

the end of your, well, you know

for the 'Mericans

[bayonetbrant]

(Typing on phone... Pls forgive brevity/typos)

I agree that RPS stifling the debate is a bad thing

I also agree that you should at least be able to have a discussion about the merits of the case without attacking someone, and without being called names for just trying to have the discussion

it sounds a lot like the extremists on both sides or just shouting at each other, and no one is bothering to listen in the middle anywhere

[GDS_Starfury]

(Typing on phone... Pls forgive brevity/typos)

it sounds a lot like the extremists on both sides or just shouting at each other, and no one is bothering to listen in the middle anywhere

I know a website like that...  if I could just remember the name of it.   

[Huw the Poo]

OK, next part!!!

One part of the fuel for the fire was a video by some feminist called Anita Sarkeesian "explaining" how women are objectified in games and how such games are normalising the objectification of women in real life.

and how such games are normalising the objectification of women in real life.

and how such games are normalising the objectification of women in real life.

I'm sure I don't have to explain to any of you fine fellows what utter bollocks this is.  But let's think a little bit more about that pernicious phrase.  If anyone seriously thinks that the objectification of women in games can cause a corresponding increase in the objectification of women in real life, shouldn't we also be agreeing with the time-worn and demonstrably false notion that violence in games can cause an increase in violence in real life?

I think I've just won the argument for us all!  Go back to bed everyone, Huw the Poo has figured it out!  All I need to do now is spread the word across the sea of reason that is the gaming community...

...and I'll surely be called a sexist for daring to have my own fucking opinion.  Which is precisely what's been happening everywhere in the last couple of weeks.  Christ, it's happening to one prominent gaming Youtuber as I type!

There is no hope for the future of Mankind.

[Silent Disapproval Robot]

...and I'll surely be called a sexist for daring to have my own fucking opinion.  Which is precisely what's been happening everywhere in the last couple of weeks.  Christ, it's happening to one prominent gaming Youtuber as I type!

There is no hope for the future of Mankind.

You left out Wimminkind.  Sexist pig.