John Tiller's Latest; Panzer Battles 2 - Normandy released

[panzerde]

^ Ok, now I can send you a PBEM invitation...

I thought maybe you'd held of in hopes of them issuing a patch with dedicated jeep counters.

[FarAway Sooner]

THis one looks really promising.  But I kinda need to make it through more of the 5 or 6 games I've already bought that are unplayed before I get along to this one.  Let's see, which should be next?

[Strela]

Hi All,

Over at the Blitz there have been some requests for some alternative versions of the map graphics - a more 'uncluttered' look.

The aim of this mod is to create more 'realistically' sized map graphics for use in Panzer Battles Normandy. If the mod is popular I will update it for Panzer Battles Kursk.

The mod contains the following changes;

New trenches, bunkers, pillboxes and obstacles. Improved positions and sea defenses are unchanged.
New city, town, village, scattered and building hexes.
New brush, forest & orchard hexes. Orchard is bigger in the amount of coverage in a hex.
New railroad and minor road graphics. Trail and primary road are unchanged as their sizing is considered optimal.
New bocage and bridge hexside graphics. No other hexsides are currently changed.



The installation process is as follows;

Download the zip file on the link below
Unzip the zip into the root directory of your Normandy installation
A new directory under the 'Map' directory called 'Map Variants' will be created.
Under 'Map Variants' are two directories 'Original' and 'Small'
Copy the contents of the Small directory and paste into the Map directory. You should be asked to overwrite some files, proceed.
If you want to restore to the original files, go to the 'Original' sub-folder and copy the files within into your map directory, overwriting as you go.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0-r6-Lo8bo-Z0pWZHRLdklLeTg/view?usp=sharing


Here are some Original vs Modded shots in game. Original is at the top, the Modded version is below;


































David

[Crossroads]

Very nice, Strela / David! It is amazing how by just changing a few details the whole of the thing becomes something completely new  :)

- petri -

[panzerde]

Thanks Dave! I saw this last night over at The Blitz and was hoping you'd release it soon. I'm a fan of the current map, but this looks interesting too. I'll give it a try today!


A question - I'm finding it impossible to disrupt SS units, or nearly so. In playing the Cristot scenario last night I managed to disrupt a single SS armor unit, and nothing else. I did manage to complete shoot up to the point of destruction numerous other SS units, but that turned out to be the only way to take ground. SS units will hang on until there is literally no one left. Maybe 50% of the time I'm successful at assaulting a hex with a severely reduced SS unit in it.

Is there a tactic for this I'm missing? I'm definitely concentrating firepower and have fire superiority. I need to try some scenarios with regular Heer troop; so far all I've fought are Fallschirmjager and SS, and these guys are tough to disrupt!

Edit: Nevermind, I figured it out. I had "Higher Fatigue Recovery" checked as an optional rule, which is something I usually use in Panzer Campaigns. For elite morale units like SS, the higher level of fatigue recovery in this game means that they very rarely will accumulate enough fatigue to make them easier to disrupt. Probably not an optional rule I want to use in Panzer Battles!

[panzerde]

Oh, and now that I've seen it in-game and played with it for awhile, I definitely prefer the new map design.

[Strela]

Thanks Dave! I saw this last night over at The Blitz and was hoping you'd release it soon. I'm a fan of the current map, but this looks interesting too. I'll give it a try today!


A question - I'm finding it impossible to disrupt SS units, or nearly so. In playing the Cristot scenario last night I managed to disrupt a single SS armor unit, and nothing else. I did manage to complete shoot up to the point of destruction numerous other SS units, but that turned out to be the only way to take ground. SS units will hang on until there is literally no one left. Maybe 50% of the time I'm successful at assaulting a hex with a severely reduced SS unit in it.

Is there a tactic for this I'm missing? I'm definitely concentrating firepower and have fire superiority. I need to try some scenarios with regular Heer troop; so far all I've fought are Fallschirmjager and SS, and these guys are tough to disrupt!

Edit: Nevermind, I figured it out. I had "Higher Fatigue Recovery" checked as an optional rule, which is something I usually use in Panzer Campaigns. For elite morale units like SS, the higher level of fatigue recovery in this game means that they very rarely will accumulate enough fatigue to make them easier to disrupt. Probably not an optional rule I want to use in Panzer Battles!

Doug,

That optional rule would do it! That said the elite troops will be very difficult to fight against and you will see that they are pretty resilient. You will also see that the SS have a much broader range of morale values than earlier in the war. Many of these formations had been bled dry and were rebuilding or taking in lower grade replacements. Some of this is discussed in the downloadable Designer Notes.

Glad you like the new graphics - it shows how moddable Tillers games are - I did the above changes in a few days.

David

[bob48]

I have this game now, as a Christmas gift from a very good friend, so I'll be putting some time into it.

[bbmike]

That's a very good friend indeed! I really want to get this but I've also always wanted Campaign 1776 so I'm torn. I know, I know, I really should get both.

[Grim.Reaper]

That's a very good friend indeed! I really want to get this but I've also always wanted Campaign 1776 so I'm torn. I know, I know, I really should get both.

I own Campaign 1776.....I remember originally buying it from HPS, the day I watched the movie Patriot:)  Even ordered special Saturday delivery to receive it sooner and at that time, that kind of shipping was expensive!

It's a good game, I just really struggle with the graphics since the game is fairly old...

[DicedT]

Anyone up for a PBEM?

[ComradeP]

panzerde: units will only recover fatigue under specific conditions, including not being fired upon, so higher fatigue recovery doesn't have much of an effect in situations where you can fire at all or most enemy units during a turn.

It's tricky to get A quality units to the point where they can disrupt, but platoons tend to be 30 man-ish units in many scenarios and not the ~50 man platoons from Kursk, so they die more quickly from direct fire compared to Kursk. Firing at them each turn with decent units will also make them B quality through fatigue fairly quickly.

[panzerde]

panzerde: units will only recover fatigue under specific conditions, including not being fired upon, so higher fatigue recovery doesn't have much of an effect in situations where you can fire at all or most enemy units during a turn.

It's tricky to get A quality units to the point where they can disrupt, but platoons tend to be 30 man-ish units in many scenarios and not the ~50 man platoons from Kursk, so they die more quickly from direct fire compared to Kursk. Firing at them each turn with decent units will also make them B quality through fatigue fairly quickly.

Yes, I've noticed both of those things. A quality units are devilishly difficult to disrupt for sure. Played a bunch of the Hill 192 scenario yesterday and the  FJ company in the Kraut Corner objective is very, very tough to dislodge even with focused artillery and concentrated direct fire. It reliably took me 4-5 turns just to wear it down enough the successive assaults by two nearly full US infantry companies supported by tanks could push them out. Only the assault would result in a disruption.

Conversely, the FJ platoons were easier to disrupt. It almost always takes artillery though. I've seen very few A quality units disrupt just due to direct fire.

I'm curious - I've been experimenting both with breaking units down into platoons and keeping them as full companies. So far it seems like full companies is the way to go when on the assault. Platoons really seem to lack the direct fire firepower to accomplish much. Platoon-sized units in any sort of prepared position that are undisrupted and equal or higher quality that the attackers are very capable, however. I'd be interested to hear anyone else's spin on this.

Dave - point taken about the variable quality of the SS units. Most of what I've played so far has been against either 12 SS-Panzer Hitlerjugend before it gets seriously torn up, or the 9th & 5th FJ Regiments.

Again, really, really enjoying this game, both for the game itself and the truly impressive Designer's Notes Dave and crew have put together.

[ComradeP]

I tend to assault with companies as they gain fatigue more slowly, and defend with platoons as it means there are more units to disrupt before the enemy can take the hex, as well as increasing the number of times the defenders fire (more units equals more opportunity fire at the moment due to there being no modifiers for size or quality that I'm aware of).

I also fire with platoons (but by stack, so they're split up, but fire as a stack to minimize return fire) instead of companies if they're not at least B quality, as a loss of 1 man can result in the entire company disrupting.

[Strela]

Yes, I've noticed both of those things. A quality units are devilishly difficult to disrupt for sure. Played a bunch of the Hill 192 scenario yesterday and the  FJ company in the Kraut Corner objective is very, very tough to dislodge even with focused artillery and concentrated direct fire. It reliably took me 4-5 turns just to wear it down enough the successive assaults by two nearly full US infantry companies supported by tanks could push them out. Only the assault would result in a disruption.

Conversely, the FJ platoons were easier to disrupt. It almost always takes artillery though. I've seen very few A quality units disrupt just due to direct fire.

I'm curious - I've been experimenting both with breaking units down into platoons and keeping them as full companies. So far it seems like full companies is the way to go when on the assault. Platoons really seem to lack the direct fire firepower to accomplish much. Platoon-sized units in any sort of prepared position that are undisrupted and equal or higher quality that the attackers are very capable, however. I'd be interested to hear anyone else's spin on this.

Dave - point taken about the variable quality of the SS units. Most of what I've played so far has been against either 12 SS-Panzer Hitlerjugend before it gets seriously torn up, or the 9th & 5th FJ Regiments.

Again, really, really enjoying this game, both for the game itself and the truly impressive Designer's Notes Dave and crew have put together.

Firstly, Hill 192 (both the Getting Started and full version) are great learning exercises on why attacking in the bocage is so hard. By the way, I went to check something in those scenarios and realised that the FJ platoon in (5,8 - Getting Started) is not entrenched - it should be. A boo boo that will be corrected in the first patch for both scenarios.

The FJ in this scenario are all B morale so pretty good. There is a distinct difference to indirect fire, direct fire and assaulting. All have pros and cons and its working out what to use when that provides the 'subtlety' in the game.

One of the biggest combat modifiers here is the -50% for fire through a hedgerow (bocage) hexside. In the case of Kraut Corner, the basic terrain type is grass (-5%) with trenches (-30%) and hedgerows at (-50%). That's a massive -85% modifier for direct fire. Why is bocage so good? The Germans were able to use the raised base of the hedgerows as trenches and overhead cover as well as section off the battlefield very effectively. It took huge effort to clear each field. These modifiers are why you're seeing such ineffectual direct fire.

It's not dissimilar for indirect fire, but the hedgerow modifier is not in play - so the overall modifier is -35%. The trick here is getting enough artillery mass on target to make a difference. Unfortunately there is a limit to how many tubes can hit any one hex - so that has to be another consideration.

Finally, there is assault. This represents actually closing with the enemy with the aim of destroying him or ejecting him from the hex. This is essentially win or lose. Importantly, in hex terrain doesn't count when assaulting with infantry (there is an impact if vehicles are used) but hexsides do. Using the Kraut Corner example again, assaulting with infantry will 'only' be impacted by the -50% for the hedgerows. The grass and trenches do not come into play.

Deciding when to use each fire/combat type is the crux of the game, with the additional lens that different units have different capabilities. Attacking in bocage for a player can be as frustrating as it was in real life.

Moving onto when to use companies vs platoons. Like all things there are advantages & disadvantages. A company will have the largest firepower and a real ability to drive out lesser units when assaulting. The problem is that it will almost always be over the 50% threshold for stacking and taking additional penalties for losses. As the attacker, I usually find the risk of additional losses is outweighed by the extra capability of a full company.

Platoons on the defense will usually be a necessity - particularly if you want to hold a reserve. The problem is that platoons are brittle. Not only are they small in manpower, but they take fatigue at an accelerated rate. Getting them dug into bocage, in entrenchments is a way to improve their longevity and really hold up the attacker - but that will not always be available so determining when to stay and when to run is critical. A full company as you're seeing at Kraut Corner is a luxury, but when available will most likely tie up at least a full battalion of the opposition and be very hard to shift. When confronted with a position like this, it's better to probe either side to see if it can be flanked and isolated and ultimately force the German player to decide whether to stand or run.

David