John Tiller's Latest; Panzer Battles 2 - Normandy released

[panzerde]

David, this is excellent stuff. It really helps understand what makes this such an excellent representation of the combat of the time. It also really demonstrates that unlike a lot of other games, there's not really a "black box" that makes it tough for the player to understand the combat mechanics. More like a board game, the modifiers and resolution mechanics are all observable and understandable.

Firstly, Hill 192 (both the Getting Started and full version) are great learning exercises on why attacking in the bocage is so hard. By the way, I went to check something in those scenarios and realised that the FJ platoon in (5,8 - Getting Started) is not entrenched - it should be. A boo boo that will be corrected in the first patch for both scenarios.

The FJ in this scenario are all B morale so pretty good. There is a distinct difference to indirect fire, direct fire and assaulting. All have pros and cons and its working out what to use when that provides the 'subtlety' in the game.

One of the biggest combat modifiers here is the -50% for fire through a hedgerow (bocage) hexside. In the case of Kraut Corner, the basic terrain type is grass (-5%) with trenches (-30%) and hedgerows at (-50%). That's a massive -85% modifier for direct fire. Why is bocage so good? The Germans were able to use the raised base of the hedgerows as trenches and overhead cover as well as section off the battlefield very effectively. It took huge effort to clear each field. These modifiers are why you're seeing such ineffectual direct fire.

Not to mention in the case of the strongpoint at Kraut Corner, unless you are attacking from hexes 2,8 or 3,8 you are attacking across a slope hexside, for another -15%. All told, you have a -100% modifier for direct fire! Last evening after I posted I sat down and really looked at what was going on and the pdt values and realized why all my direct fire was completely ineffective into that hex.

Interestingly, here's a description of that combat from an official US Army history:

Company E on the right ran into stiff opposition almost immediately, as it tried to reach the small ridge commanding a draw leading up to the hamlet of Cloville. Here was one of the enemy strongpoints, already known as "Kraut Corner," fanatically defended by half a company of Germans who had survived the heavy artillery pounding prior to the attack. The 2d Platoon of Company E tried to work its way up to the first hedgerow in the fields, but was unable to advance because of automatic weapons and mortar fire. The enemy's mortars were registered on the hedgerow lines and blanketed all routes of advance. The 3d Platoon was sent in to give support; a few men succeeded in working their way near enough to the enemy position to throw hand grenades, but got no farther. The defenses of Kraut Corner finally gave way when the 1st Platoon got around the east side of the strongpoint. Scouts streaked along the flanking hedges, supported by BAR's, machine guns of the infantry, light mortars, and the two machine guns on a tank. When eight or ten riflemen penetrated the enemy defense, resistance crumbled, and 15 prisoners were taken. Three paratroopers who still held out were eliminated by a tank dozer which buried them under five feet of dirt.

Which is a reasonably close description of how the position needs to be attacked. Hex 3,8 is the SE side of the Kruat Corner position. And, after a couple of turns of hitting the position with the full allowance of heavy artillery, that company of FJ is going to be pared down to about a half company.

Moving onto when to use companies vs platoons. Like all things there are advantages & disadvantages. A company will have the largest firepower and a real ability to drive out lesser units when assaulting. The problem is that it will almost always be over the 50% threshold for stacking and taking additional penalties for losses. As the attacker, I usually find the risk of additional losses is outweighed by the extra capability of a full company.

All of which makes sense to me, and reflects what I've learned through experimentation. I'm also trying to get my head around the ways the actual tactics of the time are reflected in the game as they relate to using companies versus platoons, tank-infantry teams, etc. One of the things I'm really enjoying about the Panzer Battles games is that the scale nicely reflects the scale that so many of the after action and historical reports are written. As such, the game is an excellent tool - much more so than squad scale games IMHO - for understanding what actually happened and how the commanders on the scene had to think about what they were doing.

Really nicely done, David. I find I'm thinking more deeply about this game than I have about any other game for quite some time.

[ComradeP]

This may or may not be as intended, but hexside penalties don't stack, so firing through 2 bocage hexsides still gives "just" a -50% penalty. As visibility through hedgerows is also 2 hexes, this allows you to engage the enemy from a distance. With hedgerow hexsides blocking LOS unless adjacent, artillery spotting would also be very difficult, so the visibility range of 2 is understandable.

[panzerde]

This may or may not be as intended, but hexside penalties don't stack, so firing through 2 bocage hexsides still gives "just" a -50% penalty. As visibility through hedgerows is also 2 hexes, this allows you to engage the enemy from a distance. With hedgerow hexsides blocking LOS unless adjacent, artillery spotting would also be very difficult, so the visibility range of 2 is understandable.

That's a very good point, ComradeP. I noticed (and wondered) about that myself. I agree that it makes good sense in terms of playability, particularly through artillery spotting.

In a great part thanks to your and David's explanations I've managed to pull off a win in the Hill 192 scenario finally and feel I have a much better understanding of the mechanics of the game. I feel like I'm almost ready to give this a try against another human, now.

I think I may write up a tutorial on some of this, mostly so when I decide to play it again after an extended time away I can more quickly get myself back into understanding what's going on!

[Strela]

This may or may not be as intended, but hexside penalties don't stack, so firing through 2 bocage hexsides still gives "just" a -50% penalty. As visibility through hedgerows is also 2 hexes, this allows you to engage the enemy from a distance. With hedgerow hexsides blocking LOS unless adjacent, artillery spotting would also be very difficult, so the visibility range of 2 is understandable.

Yes that's exactly as intended. This allows mortar fire and other indirect fire work once units are revealed.

That's the other subtlety, deciding when to reveal your units particularly when on the defence. ZOCs aren't locking until a unit is visible/detected in a hex. The defender can be in a real quandary on when to stop the attackers advance as that will usually subject them to a barrage of direct and indirect fire.

David

[ComradeP]

By the way: hedgerow penalties not stacking is also why Panzer division/elite Fallschirmjaeger division units can cause many losses through hedgerows whilst you often can't: as the quality fire modifier is 2.5, and the base bonus for B quality units is 10% and 20% for A quality units, A quality units fire at their "normal" unadjusted value (instead of +50%) when firing through hedgerows.

The bulk of the Allied infantry is C quality, so when they fire at dug-in Germans through hedgerow they can get a 85%-90% or so penalty whereas the Germans only get a -25% or 0% modifier (or likely -35%/-10% as there are numerous -10% terrain types around in hedgerows).

The German mobile units also have higher base SA values to begin with, and particularly the British(-equipped) forces lack the SA value to make much of an impression on dug-in defenders.

[Zonso]

Wow the screenshots look very, very good! I am not familiar with this series and wonder what the gameplay is like, differs from the others, ie Panzer Campaigns and Squad Battles which I played briefly eons ago. What I remember was a lot of tedious counter pushing and different phases. Has this been streamlined? Another big one is the lacklustre AI opponent - has this improved any from the earlier series?

[Boggit]

I've been playing a few of the Hill 192 scenario until just now when I got a minor victory. It is an extremely bloody scenario, and it pays for the US player to hold fire in their turn - save for tanks, and the AT battery and let the artillery do its work until a disrupt occurs. Shooting at the entrenched paras on the hill is mostly a waste of time, especially as the opfire the paras get shred your units.

The presentation is beautiful, and it is a very nice game.

Dave - I think the bocage hexside rules need a change to permit units in travel mode to follow a road through a bocage hex side without movement penalties, nor vehicles becoming vulnerable either as they are following the road, not breaking through the bocage. Obviously moving close to the enemy in travel mode has its issues, but that is dealt with effectively by the rules anyway.

Another nice feature would be the ability to fire into suspected enemy positions even if it looks like an empty hex, as you can with Squad Battles to simulate suppressive fire for an anticipated attack.

[Strela]

I've been playing a few of the Hill 192 scenario until just now when I got a minor victory. It is an extremely bloody scenario, and it pays for the US player to hold fire in their turn - save for tanks, and the AT battery and let the artillery do its work until a disrupt occurs. Shooting at the entrenched paras on the hill is mostly a waste of time, especially as the opfire the paras get shred your units.

The presentation is beautiful, and it is a very nice game.

Dave - I think the bocage hexside rules need a change to permit units in travel mode to follow a road through a bocage hex side without movement penalties, nor vehicles becoming vulnerable either as they are following the road, not breaking through the bocage. Obviously moving close to the enemy in travel mode has its issues, but that is dealt with effectively by the rules anyway.

Another nice feature would be the ability to fire into suspected enemy positions even if it looks like an empty hex, as you can with Squad Battles to simulate suppressive fire for an anticipated attack.

Hi Boggit,

Glad you're enjoying the game - we had fun pulling it together.

I went back and had a think about your suggestions regarding bocage and travel mode. I used the Hill 192 Getting Started scenario as a test base and moved the Shermans in hex (4,5) directly south into hex (4,6) - the same direction as the road and crossing a hedgerow hexside.

As you mention, moving deployed results in the Shermans using 46 movement points (from 72 to 26) and ending with the ability to take a single shot. The tank unit is marked as 'vulnerable' dropping their defense value from 13 down to 6.

If the same unit flips into travel mode (at zero cost), it can move into hex (4,6) but only at a cost of 5 movements points (from 72 to 67). There is no penalty for movement as the road is negating the cost of crossing the hegerow.This leaves enough points to either flip back into a deployed state and take one shot or take two shots without deploying. Importantly, the Shermans still become 'vulnerable' which halves their defense value down to 6.

So as you point out the contentious issue is the 'vulnerable' status. The reason it was included when crossing any hedgerow, whether in travel mode on a road or not is that existing (think roads) or created openings were both easy to hit with direct and indirect fire and also forced vehicles and men to concentrate behind any opening before moving through. These concentrations were expected at road openings and the Germans preregistered a lot of fire here. Essentially 'vulnerable' represents these concentrations being hit as much as the physical act of small penetrations through the hedgerows. Don't forget where there were roads they were only a single vehicle wide in many cases and left little room for maneuver.

Going into travel mode will get you further down the road then being deployed, but comes with all the additional inherent risks you call out.

Suffice to say bocage is bad - it needs to cause issues for the attacker and force them to be methodical and not push too far into the unknown without piling up penalties for doing that.

As far as suppressive direct fire, this is not in game in the main due to the difference in scale in Squad Battles (40 meter hex) vs Panzer Battles (250 meter hex). The suppressive fire that is allowed is indirect fire on hexes that are sighted by ground units. This will be reduced in value due to the area fire impact over the larger hex size.

I hope that all makes sense?

David

[bob48]

I'm enjoying playing this so far. However, I sort of object to have my armour op-fired on by nebelwerfers :-(

[MengJiao]

I'm enjoying playing this so far. However, I sort of object to have my armour op-fired on by nebelwerfers :-(

  Interesting.  Can't happen in the Gold, Juno Sword part of the Grand tactical boardgame anyway.  I do like the John Tiller games, but these days I'm absorbed in VASSAL.

[Pinetree]

Damn it. I think those planning maps just pushed me over the edge.

Here's a link to get the German situation maps for comparison (scroll down to the bottom for OB-West 1944 links. There's links to other theatres as well):

http://www.wwii-photos-maps.com/home_page_019.htm

They are in .tif format and large so you'll need an image editing program to view them. I've been using these and the FUSAG maps to help create the situation maps for CO2.

[Cyrano]

Now hip deep into this one with the obligatory anti-Doug MP and a couple solos, the highest, best praise I can offer this one is that I may not actually need the third PL I got for Christmas to set up my mega game...

Grogheads has to wire up a deal with Tiller to bring this on a LAN to Origins...think BIG game :D.

[panzerde]

Team play of The Longest Day scenario...

[panzerde]

Some tips I've discovered or learned from others posts and discussions with players like ComradeP and of course Strela:

   
• Use concentrated direct fire from tanks and AT guns that are at least two hexes away, but usually no more than four hexes away. By "concentrated" I mean I usually throw an entire squadron/company of tanks at a single trench hex. HMG companies are also useful against trenches from a couple hexes away, though they will take about as many casualties as they inflict. LMGs can be useful, but only if there's no direct-fire reducing terrain (see below).
• Keep your rifle companies behind the tanks until you have reduced the defensive capabilities of the target trench hex. If possible, keep them in terrain where they can't be seen, or at least have some cover.
  I like to break up my rifle companies that aren't assaulting into platoons, and keep no more than two in one hex, usually. That way if they take fire, you will usually only get a single platoon to disrupt and not the entire company. The remaining platoons can continue to advance together if moving to attack.
• Don't leave rifle companies adjacent to dug-in defenders for multiple turns. They'll just take casualties and lose fatigue and morale to the point where they are useless in the assault.
• Understand that you are probably not going to disrupt A/B morale troops in trenches (or bunkers) with direct fire most of the time. You can, however, reduce their numbers to single digits in a few turns and lower their morale by at least one level. Their fatigue will also probably be yellow.
• Try and hit the reduced trench (or bunker!) with as close to two full rifle companies as you can. If you can add engineers, great. Specialized assault tanks like AVREs and Churchill Crocs can be helpful. I'm not yet convinced that regular tanks in an assault are worth the potential vehicle loss. I need to experiment more.
• Assault with units that have the same morale value. The assault calculation uses the lowest morale value to determine results.
• Be very, very very aware of the terrain/hexside penalties versus direct fire. Take a look at the Kraut Corner hex in the Hill 192 scenario, for example. Between being entrenched (-30%), in grass (-5%) behind hedgerows (-50%) and at a higher elevation (-15%) the combined impact on direct fire from any hex north of the objective is -100%! You can sit there all day and fire on that hex and you will never so much as scratch a single defender.
• If you can bypass a defensive position, do so. Flank the enemy, don't beat your head against them if you don't need to. Properly executed this leaves them isolated and easier to deal with. They may even retreat on their own.
• Mortars are not terribly useful against trenches, but field/medium/heavy guns can cause some casualties and fatigue. It won't be anything like what artillery can do to units in the open, but that steady attack each turn does contribute to reducing numbers in concert with direct fire.
• If you have it, use smoke to block off LOS to your target hex from nearby defenders and screen your HMG, AT Gun, and infantry from retaliatory fire from surrounding hexes. I never have enough smoke. I would fire a ton of it every turn if I had it.
• If you can isolate the target hex with ZOCs it's worth it, as long as you leave a retreat path for the defenders. The reduction in defender morale is worth it, but they have to be able to retreat or they will stay there and fight it out. Once through the defensive line, it becomes easier to isolate other positions

Again, I'm not that great a player, and these are just the things I've worked out myself and learned from reading posts by others. YMMV and I may well have some wrong assumptions here. I'd be interested to hear from others using these and similar tactics.

[Grim.Reaper]

I have held off on this one, but maybe time to spend some money.