Good or evil? How do you play?

MetalDog · February 21, 2016, 10:36:22 AM

I've played D&D for on and off for 35 years. In every game I've played, I always wanted to be the good guy. I've played Paladins and Rangers. Clerics and Fighters. Elves, Dwarves and Humans. For me, being the hero of the story is where it's at.

Last night, I gathered together a group of n00bs to get a D&D 5e game going. I gave them handouts for the classes and told them to choose what they like. I explained many of the things they needed to know, Ability scores and modifiers, Armor Class, Hit Points, Saving Throws, etc. When it came to Alignment, I told them it was a moral code and a way to express your view through play. I got two Neutrals, two Chaotic Neutrals and a Neutral Good. And one of the CN's wanted to be Chaotic Evil.

All of the campaign ideas I had are out the window. It was supposed to be the characters fighting it out with Gnolls and Bugbears early, while unraveling the networks built by the evil dragons in the area. The Theocracy of Volnaya is a good aligned kingdom that was to send Clerics and Fighters to the battle against the Dragons and their minions that the heroes were supposed to gather to stop the Dragon Cultists from raising an undead Dragon as the culmination of the campaign.

Now, it looks as if I am going to have to scrap the original plan and have all of the bad guys court/thwart the PC's. Let the characters have some control of all the bad events that could happen. I'm really bummed about that. I'm a white hat kind of guy and I don't understand where these players are coming from in universally making the choice to be bad guys. What are some of the experiences you guys have had running or playing in games? Is it usually this way? Or do you usually have players wanting to play good guys?

mirth · February 21, 2016, 10:54:28 AM

I've played good and evil characters over the years and I've known plenty of people who wanted play the "bad guys" (not sure if I've ever had an entire party go that way). I have had characters that I started out playing as good and end up pretty evil. And vice-versa.

Most of the time, we haven't been too hung up on alignment. Usually there are sufficient individual reasons for party members to want to cooperate and complete the "mission". The end of the world is bad for everyone.

I guess what I'm saying is, "I'm fuzzy on the on the whole good/bad thing".

MetalDog · February 21, 2016, 11:27:32 AM

Thanks for the viewpoint. It just seemed like from the table talk that the players wanted to wreak as much havoc and chaos as possible. I'm not mentally geared in the direction. So it's going to be difficult for me to wrap my head around. I guess I will co-opt the bad guys plans and open them as avenues for adventure to the PC's.

mirth · February 21, 2016, 11:45:43 AM

I've never played with a group quite like that. Even when playing the bad guys, there's been some motivation for it. Just sowing death and destruction for it's own sake doesn't make for a very fun game.

I guess there are ways of handling that as a game master. If the PCs decide that are going to pillage the countryside, they are going to quickly run afoul of more powerful forces of good. Let Gandalf and Aragorn teach them a lesson ;)

bayonetbrant · February 21, 2016, 11:47:05 AM

1. Chaotic Neutral is very, very tough to play, even for experienced people. They are the Harley Quinns of the world who just want to wreak havoc for its own sake.

2. Have them raid a village. Rape, pillage, maul, etc. Then next session, give them the "good guys" and have them return home from an adventure to find their village in ruins - the aftershocks of the raid they'd just conducted.

mirth · February 21, 2016, 11:55:09 AM

Do you guys play characters strictly according to alignment? I've always treated it more as a guide or framework to build characters around. Sure, if you're lawful good you're going to behave in a certain way overall, but I don't make alignment the main component of a character.

I'm also not a rules purist though either. We tend to play broadly within a rules set, with a lot of discretion left to the GM.

MetalDog · February 21, 2016, 12:34:57 PM

This is my first go round as a DM. This is the first go round for each of the players with D&D. I want to give them a good time so that they will want to play some more. I'm not suggesting Monty Haul, but, to give them their head in telling a story they want to hear.

I'm not an alignment stickler. At least I don't think I am. But I want them to have some kind of rationale for the way their characters act/react. I intend to give them unfavorable reactions from the good guys forces if their actions call for it. My main problem is going to be, what to do with the Neutral Good guy? He's a Bard, so, I've suggested maybe a 'clinical' interest in staying with the group. Doing research for an epic or something.

Something they have done away with is Alignment requirements for classes. I haven't read all the class descriptions, but, the ones I did had no mention of having to be a particular alignment. Not even Paladin. Weird.

mirth · February 21, 2016, 12:40:12 PM

Quote from: MetalDog on February 21, 2016, 12:34:57 PM
Something they have done away with is Alignment requirements for classes. I haven't read all the class descriptions, but, the ones I did had no mention of having to be a particular alignment. Not even Paladin. Weird.

I haven't picked up a D&D rule book in years, but that does seem weird. Alignment requirements for certain classes always made sense to me.

Good luck with your group. DMing is tough no matter what. Hopefully the group comes around a little bit as they become more experienced as players.

Silent Disapproval Robot · February 21, 2016, 12:55:36 PM

I haven't played in a long time but two of the best campaigns I played had me playing unsavoury types. My longest running character was a neutral thief who was just in it for himself. The GM did a great job of constantly having me have to deal with duplicitous fences, getting strong armed and screwed over by the Guild, and having to deal with the town watch. The other character was a lawful evil cleric who used the power of the church and the force of law to amass wealth and become a petty despot. That campaign didn't last too long (I got arrested by the inquisition and burned) but it was a different experience from the usual dungeon crawl, save the village type stuff.

mirth · February 21, 2016, 01:09:48 PM

I played a Deadwood type game several years ago. This was before I had seen Deadwood and I went in thinking it was just a Wild West game. I was planning on playing a roguish gunfighter (I modeled his appearance on Bruce Campbell as Brisco County Jr). I ended up working as Cy Tolliver's enforcer (he wasn't named Cy Tolliver, but it was clear that's who it was). For any of you who have seen Deadwood, you know that means I wasn't one of the "good guys".

My character had some measure of redemption in the end, but he roughed up a lot of miners and town folk along the way.

LongBlade · February 21, 2016, 01:20:08 PM

Quote from: bayonetbrant on February 21, 2016, 11:47:05 AM
1. Chaotic Neutral is very, very tough to play, even for experienced people. They are the Harley Quinns of the world who just want to wreak havoc for its own sake.

I'd draw a slight distinction here.

Chaotic Neutral is into the chaos, but doesn't have a vested interest in whether it's for good or evil. Or maybe they do, but want the chaos equally balanced between good and evil (think Random Acts of Kindness here).

Chaotic Evil - those are the insane people - the ones who want to see the world burn just to see it burn.

Quote2. Have them raid a village. Rape, pillage, maul, etc. Then next session, give them the "good guys" and have them return home from an adventure to find their village in ruins - the aftershocks of the raid they'd just conducted.

Agreed. Actions have consequences. Even if the local lord/king is Lawful Evil, he's going to frown upon characters messing up his order of things. Think of LE as the mafia - They have a strict set of rules. It may involve all sorts of bad stuff, but they apply it in an ordered sense within their framework. They're not above doing good works if it furthers their own ends. So in that regard alignment exists as something of a guideline.

Lawful Good OTOH is more like Superman. He may lie about his secret identity (lying is evil) but he's Good overall and about 99.9% through and through.

------

I thought it was just me, but the last several groups I've played/DM'd seem to have more Neutral types. I'm not sure if it's a reluctance/stereotype that "Good" guys don't have as much fun/as many options to accomplish their goals or not.

As a DM you need to be careful about walking the line between preaching from a Metagaming standard and keeping evil/chaos in check within the game structure. The two can overlap but, as you recognize MD, the meta can eclipse the game if you're not careful.

Brant's solution is best: let actions have consequences. A neutral/evil group that wipes out Bugbears still furthers the end of protecting the town (a good act). One doesn't exclude the other. But if the party robs some innocent merchants on the way there/back then the long arm of the law certainly can be extended to keep those actions in check.

MetalDog · February 21, 2016, 01:32:33 PM

Thanks, gents, for the thoughts and experiences. It's going to be hard not making this into a DM versus players game. Thankfully they are all in their 20's, so, they can grasp the concept of consequences rather than just thinking the DM is out to get us. And I will be sure to state ahead of time that this campaign will be about that, consequences. That way, if we all work together, maybe the story will still have a deadly or unhappy ending, at least we will know we got there on purpose.

LongBlade · February 21, 2016, 01:36:04 PM

As a DM you can have fun with this.

Let the Rogue pick a few pockets (and even fail) before he's caught.

Let them waylay a merchant or two on the highway before they're ambushed.

It'll be all the more fun when you drop the hammer on them!

Nefaro · February 21, 2016, 01:38:01 PM

Quote from: MetalDog on February 21, 2016, 10:36:22 AM

Last night, I gathered together a group of n00bs to get a D&D 5e game going. I gave them handouts for the classes and told them to choose what they like. I explained many of the things they needed to know, Ability scores and modifiers, Armor Class, Hit Points, Saving Throws, etc. When it came to Alignment, I told them it was a moral code and a way to express your view through play. I got two Neutrals, two Chaotic Neutrals and a Neutral Good. And one of the CN's wanted to be Chaotic Evil.

Quote from: Silent Disapproval Robot on February 21, 2016, 12:55:36 PM
I haven't played in a long time but two of the best campaigns I played had me playing unsavoury types. My longest running character was a neutral thief who was just in it for himself. The GM did a great job of constantly having me have to deal with duplicitous fences, getting strong armed and screwed over by the Guild, and having to deal with the town watch.

Sounds like angling toward this middle-of-the-road style of campaign is what MD's player group is looking for. Less of a goody-goody straightforward superhero style situation, and more of a gritty anti-hero feel. Which could be a lot of fun once figured out.

With more self-centered neutral characters, you can throw challenges at them from both sides. Since they're firmly in the center, then you should have all kinda of foils to draw upon. Not just from the usual evil side, but also more room for the law hounding them and associative yet often untrustworthy interactions with criminal and rebel factions and leaders. Could lead to discovery of secret conspiracies, especially within what was previously perceived as a Lawful/Good faction which had been hounding them. Such methods could still be used to pit them against the bad guys, although it may take some time & effort getting it to that point. Maybe such things will slowly bring them closer to your style of classical Good Hero play, in a roundabout way, to some extent.

This more free-wheeling neutral type of campaign is surely more difficult to do because it requires even more flexibility and ad-lib'ing. But if you can catch your feet, it has some of the greatest potential for enjoyment & character evolution.

EDIT:
Don't think of it as the fellowship, marching in a desperate bid to destroy evil, in LotR. Think of it more like a bunch of Han Solos who may eventually & inadvertently get mixed up in the rebellion. Or some of the characters in Game Of Thrones (notably the mercs) who end up benefiting by finding themselves in the lucrative employ of Tyrion or Dragon Lady.

MetalDog · February 21, 2016, 02:08:52 PM

Quote from: LongBlade on February 21, 2016, 01:36:04 PM
As a DM you can have fun with this.

Let the Rogue pick a few pockets (and even fail) before he's caught.

Let them waylay a merchant or two on the highway before they're ambushed.

It'll be all the more fun when you drop the hammer on them!

Quote from: Nefaro on February 21, 2016, 01:38:01 PM
Sounds like angling toward this middle-of-the-road style of campaign is what MD's player group is looking for. Less of a goody-goody straightforward superhero style situation, and more of a gritty anti-hero feel. Which could be a lot of fun once figured out.

With more self-centered neutral characters, you can throw challenges at them from both sides. Since they're firmly in the center, then you should have all kinda of foils to draw upon. Not just from the usual evil side, but also more room for the law hounding them and associative yet often untrustworthy interactions with criminal and rebel factions and leaders. Could lead to discovery of secret conspiracies, especially within what was previously perceived as a Lawful/Good faction which had been hounding them. Such methods could still be used to pit them against the bad guys, although it may take some time & effort getting it to that point. Maybe such things will slowly bring them closer to your style of classical Good Hero play, in a roundabout way, to some extent.

This more free-wheeling neutral type of campaign is surely more difficult to do because it requires even more flexibility and ad-lib'ing. But if you can catch your feet, it has some of the greatest potential for enjoyment & character evolution.

EDIT:
Don't think of it as the fellowship, marching in a desperate bid to destroy evil, in LotR. Think of it more like a bunch of Han Solos who may eventually & inadvertently get mixed up in the rebellion. Or some of the characters in Game Of Thrones (notably the mercs) who end up benefiting by finding themselves in the lucrative employ of Tyrion or Dragon Lady.

More good suggestions!