Panther Games Command Ops 2 Limited Time Offer Bundle Pack Coming Soon

[amandachen]

I think I'll play my Matrix version of Command Ops as I wait for CO3 or CO4. By then I'm sure a shedful of lingering, obscure bugs will have been found and fixed. And, hey, there might even be another deal on the module pack.

[Zonso]

You know for the amount of activity this thread has created, you would think Command Ops is such a popular game that this whole pricing, content, sales issue would be irrelevant. Unfortunately that has not been the case since Airborne Assault and remains unchanged today it seems.

I have to admit I was more than a little gobsmacked after trying out the 'new core engine' at how minor the changes were from BftB. I had not been following their forums much but was under the impression the overriding intent was to change the presentation of the game to attempt to bring in new blood? (I seem to recall such a thread from Matrix but can't seem to find it now.) This is really more of the same from my initial take on it. In fact looking back at a wishlist thread from 5 years ago(!) - http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2480256&mpage=1&key= - it is disappointing at how few of these features have yet to be implemented and realistically likely never will.

While not my first passion, I do appreciate the brilliance of this game and have continued with my support even though I haven't played the latest expansions much at all. In fact, I actually prefer CotA over the Greek scenario pack for BftB and the same to a lesser extent with HttR.

While I have the upmost respect for what has been accomplished with this game, reading Arjuna's post I can't help but think there is an underlying management and delegation issue here. With the pace of previous releases/patches, I can't see 2 upgrades, at full game prices reportedly, every year unless the new 'features' are simply window dressing and modification of existing refinements. Hate to be negative, but it all seems like wishful thinking to me and have doubts of its success. Just curious, but I wonder if Bletchley_Geek is still involved?

[Rayfer]

Bummer...went over to the Matrix site and see Battles from the Bulge and the two expansions have been discontinued and unavailable for purchase. I have the base game and HttR and now wish I had gotten Battles for Greece.

[Toonces]

First, Arjuna, outstanding post!  I really mean that.  Your passion and belief in your company really comes through and I am glad you could articulate it so well.

Second, this pricing sounds a lot like what is going on with Steel Beasts Pro Personal Edition.  And Battlefront, too, I suppose.  It IS the new paradigm in wargame development, and I suspect we'll be seeing more of this in the future.  We can either adapt or shop elsewhere.

But if we shop elsewhere, understand that we're slitting our own throats here.  We all want quality wargames to be developed, but we still demand 1990's pricing.  It isn't going to happen.  In fact, the more I think about it, more of the games I play than not have started moving to the paid upgrade path.  DCS adopted this with the Blackshark to Blackshark 2, FC2 to FC3...I have 3 versions of ARMA now (with DLC)...WitP to WitP:AE...I'll bet if I keep thinking on it many more examples will surface.

My point is that this isn't new, but it is becoming more common.  I guess bottom line all I can say is that before we get all indignant about some future thing we may or may not have to pay for, we better think hard on how much we want games like this to be developed. 

[Zonso]

Bummer...went over to the Matrix site and see Battles from the Bulge and the two expansions have been discontinued and unavailable for purchase. I have the base game and HttR and now wish I had gotten Battles for Greece.

I think you would be better off getting the new 'Commander's Pack' then, a lot more for a few dollars more. IMO a no-brainer. More of a question is for those that already own everything from Panther...

[JasonPratt]

ALL HAIL DAVE! ALL HAIL DAVE!

I feel pretty reassured now. Basically the COps system will be an operating system. Operating system is always free, and each version is supported for a while. Except instead of backwards compatibility it's forward compatibility: new content won't be backwards compatible but old content will be forward compatible, at a paid update cost when the operating system goes for a full point update, with a loyalty discount for previous purchasing. Pay for what you want to play with in a modular fashion.

In other words, it's no different in principle from what we've already had, and what was already being done with the consolidation of the scenarios and campaigns into COps1. Red Devils? Still there just not supported anymore because HTTR came out. HTTR? Still there just not supported anymore. CotA? Still there just not supported anymore. COps1? Still there, if you want (most of) the material from the previous games, you can buy the updates for that new engine iteration, or play the old games you already bought. COps2? You can buy the updates for that new engine iteration, or play the old version(s) you already bought and only buy new material for this engine if you want it. COps3? All the old things are still there but won't be supported on bug hunts anymore; you can buy new versions of the old games in the new engine at a loyalty discount with proof of prior purchase.

It's up to the devs to sell us on why we should buy new modules (which may or may not require a new version of the engine, which itself will be free) or new versions of old modules. If the customer doesn't think it's worth paying for yet, don't buy. Perfectly fair.


I do think it's a tad disingenuous to say it isn't a paid beta, though. Is the core engine still in beta? Yes. Is there any way to play the paid packs without the core engine? No. The core engine may not be a paid beta (since it's free and comes with some testing scenarios for demo purposes), but the "commander's pack" special is a paid beta. A heavily discounted paid beta, basically on a loyalty discount without having to check for the loyalty, so I'm not complaining about that. But it is a paid beta. That's actually the deal; paid beta equals heavy discount for upgrading everything all at once (plus some things that hadn't yet made it into the previous update.)

[Grim.Reaper]

I do think it's a tad disingenuous to say it isn't a paid beta, though. Is the core engine still in beta? Yes. Is there any way to play the paid packs without the core engine? No. The core engine may not be a paid beta (since it's free and comes with some testing scenarios for demo purposes), but the "commander's pack" special is a paid beta. A heavily discounted paid beta, basically on a loyalty discount without having to check for the loyalty, so I'm not complaining about that. But it is a paid beta. That's actually the deal; paid beta equals heavy discount for upgrading everything all at once (plus some things that hadn't yet made it into the previous update.)

However, I would add it is an OPTIONAL beta (of course the company should have had that on the store page before orders accepted)....you don't have to purchase the modules right now, you can wait until it becomes official.  Certainly waiting comes with some risk if it does not become official until after the Commander Pack goes back to full price....but you could wait at least 89 days before having to make that decision and see where it is:)

[Rayfer]

Bummer...went over to the Matrix site and see Battles from the Bulge and the two expansions have been discontinued and unavailable for purchase. I have the base game and HttR and now wish I had gotten Battles for Greece.

I think you would be better off getting the new 'Commander's Pack' then, a lot more for a few dollars more. IMO a no-brainer. More of a question is for those that already own everything from Panther...

Checked out the site....Core engine free then $50.00 for the Commander's Pack of five modules. That is quite tempting.

[Arjuna]

From searching on the Matrix site;

Highway to the Reich released December 2003, patched until May 2004
Conquest of the Aegean released June 2006, patched until April 2008
Command Ops Battles From The Bulge released May 2010, Highway to the Reich released January 2012, Battles For Greece released June 2013, engine patched until July 2014

Of course Panther may radically change their previous behavior and finally be making their move to tap the incredibly lucrative wargame market...

LOL  ;D

[Arjuna]

Re Bug Fixing. I think we have pretty good track record of fixing bugs. It gets priority.

Re the paid beta argument. I beg to differ with the assertion that this is a paid beta program. The Core is free. There is no payment for it. If you download the Core you do not have to buy any modules. I was my original intention to just release the Core but we received numerous requests to release the Modules now. In hindsight that may have been a mistake but instead of trying to placate this argument I would be trying to placate my loyal customers for not giving them what they want. It seems in this business you are dammed either way.

In the end it all boils down to trust. I have been in this business since 1985. I have never tried to screw anyone and my bank balance is a testament to how little I have financially benefited from what has been thirty years of very hard work. I think I have earned the benefit of the doubt.

[-budd-]

Thanks Dave, from my point of view Panther has certainly earned the benefit of the doubt. I appreciate the dedication and high standards you have for your work and I hope the new model works out well for Panther and I'm am able to buy your games for years to come.

I gotta say I love the new replay feature. I can rename and save multiple replays right? This will be great once its fleshed out. looking forward to watching the replay and jumping in and taking over to explore "what if i did this instead" does any other game have this feature? For me this feature alone is worth the price of buying them all over again and once all the editing stuff is in there should be some fantastic AAR's. I don't suppose they could be an option of watching the replay with or without fog of war and being able to pick which side to watch from?

It should be a nice weekend, i have CO2 to explore and test out the new FPC beta patch.

[Arjuna]

I don't suppose they could be an option of watching the replay with or without fog of war and being able to pick which side to watch from?

Actually I can do that right now with the debug version but I deliberately didn't do it for the release version. My thinking was that if I provide that players will be too tempted to cheat. Not that you have that in mind, though.  ;)

[Arjuna]

I believe I have fixed the game speed issue. I'm putting out a new build 5.0.8 later this afternoon. It will go to LNL to work up an installer and should be available early next week.

[-budd-]

what about this screen, i was watching a replay at the fastest speed. clicked yes and it seemed to be OK as i went forward, but i didn't continue very long.

[-budd-]

on the replay thing i thought it would be interesting to play the other side against your own plan, that would be kinda cool O0

I'd rename the file and save the replay[don't know if each replay is saved or if it just saves over it], play a bunch of scenarios maybe put how i scored in the save replay name and sometime in the future play the other side in my most stunning victories to try and stop myself ;D, by the time i played i would probably forget the plan that gave me the stunning victory.