DVG's Tiger Leader

TacticalWargames · July 23, 2015, 11:08:02 AM

Bartheart..I live outside US..but I can't imagine it being that heavy. Plus I'm hoping the shop I bought it from may get them for their customers..who knows..

BanzaiCat · July 23, 2015, 11:11:25 AM

Quote from: Barthheart on July 23, 2015, 11:06:20 AM

It is a big deal if you live anywhere outside of the US. >:(

My bad. True enough, goodness knows. :-\

As far as redoing the rules...yes, I agree. This feels too much like the game is getting a total overhaul and not just making a few changes here and there. Keep an eye on the BGG page to see what they've done thus far. Christopher Dean from the NWS store is doing a fantastic job coordinating all of the user input thus far:

https://boardgamegeek.com/article/19457172#19457172

Barthheart · July 23, 2015, 11:21:39 AM

Quote from: Banzai_Cat on July 23, 2015, 11:11:25 AM
...
Christopher Dean from the NWS store is doing a fantastic job coordinating all of the user input thus far:
....

Or meddling... I like Chris as a retailer... but I think he's the one driving the "additions" to the game..... :(

BanzaiCat · July 23, 2015, 11:27:13 AM

Yeah...my perception, though, is he's submitting all of the user-provided input (as well as his own, yes). It will be up to Dan V. and company as to what they end up doing, of course.

I'm really hoping they DON'T go with something more detailed, combat-wise. I kind of rolled my eyes when I saw rules for AP ammo and flank shots and all that crap. I just want something that plays fast and makes general sense. Some things didn't make sense - like infantry taking out tanks at range. Changing their attack to Range 0 is a game-changer, quite literally.

If this 'beta' is a mess (and he/they probably shouldn't have used that word in describing the new rules set, as that's pissed off more than a few over at BGG), there might not be a lot of chance for the Tank Leader series to take off. We'll see.

Barthheart · July 23, 2015, 02:08:23 PM

Latest post from Chris....emphasis is mine...

QuoteJust to be clear to everyone.. Dan and Rick have been very receptive to my suggestions and feedback regarding the combat system in Tiger Leader. Dan had very good intentions with his original concept at trying to keep the tactical engine as streamlined as possible and yes there were some various parts I did not 100% agree with - which I obviously posted my own suggested modified and variants rules for everyone to try out.

The updated combat system I submitted for review I feel gives a good level of additional historical accuracy - and yet - does not increase the workload on the player. The first PDF posting will be a beta version so players can then submit their thoughts before the updates are put into final production as no matter how much you playtest a wargame you can never match the scrutiny of hundreds, or thousands, of players so we are keeping the door open for constructive feedback to help further improve and tweak the updated system further if needed. For that matter, my recommendations give room for improved flexibility to tweak the design.

BanzaiCat · July 24, 2015, 09:23:38 AM

So, I decided over the last several days, as free time allowed, to reorganize the Tiger Leader manual in its entirety.

I did NOT do this for pay, or because DVG asked me (or anyone else for that matter)...I mentioned upthread somewhere I was considering doing this. I only did it for my reference and for my usage. I am not intending to send this over to DVG to get their feedback; this can pretty much be considered a 'fan-made' product.

This version (1.1) is only a reorg of the current manual's rules. I did not incorporate any of the proposed changes over on BGG and will wait for 'official' material from DVG before changing any of the 1.1 manual that I've created.

I've attached it here so those of you that are familiar with the manual may download it, if you'd like, and let me know what you think.

It is NOT complete, either - no 'frills' or extra decor, and there are a few holes here and there (Game Set-Up is the main one, I think, that I've not done yet, so there might be references throughout the rules telling the player what to do/how to set up - I intend to move all this to this Game Set-Up section). I'm aware of all the minor things that need to be fixed, as well as most of the major ones (for example, clearly defining the difference between Vehicles and Infantry, as well as what Tactics are, which interestingly enough aren't defined anywhere in the current manual).

I did make several changes to the existing graphics. It took me a while to land on some of the designs and I tried several different ways, none of which really did it for me. Some of these are the first ones I'm comfortable with doing.

Let me know what you guys think.

PanzersEast · July 24, 2015, 09:59:46 AM

Quote from: Banzai_Cat on July 24, 2015, 09:23:38 AM
So, I decided over the last several days, as free time allowed, to reorganize the Tiger Leader manual in its entirety.

I did NOT do this for pay, or because DVG asked me (or anyone else for that matter)...I mentioned upthread somewhere I was considering doing this. I only did it for my reference and for my usage. I am not intending to send this over to DVG to get their feedback; this can pretty much be considered a 'fan-made' product.

This version (1.1) is only a reorg of the current manual's rules. I did not incorporate any of the proposed changes over on BGG and will wait for 'official' material from DVG before changing any of the 1.1 manual that I've created.

I've attached it here so those of you that are familiar with the manual may download it, if you'd like, and let me know what you think.

It is NOT complete, either - no 'frills' or extra decor, and there are a few holes here and there (Game Set-Up is the main one, I think, that I've not done yet, so there might be references throughout the rules telling the player what to do/how to set up - I intend to move all this to this Game Set-Up section). I'm aware of all the minor things that need to be fixed, as well as most of the major ones (for example, clearly defining the difference between Vehicles and Infantry, as well as what Tactics are, which interestingly enough aren't defined anywhere in the current manual).

I did make several changes to the existing graphics. It took me a while to land on some of the designs and I tried several different ways, none of which really did it for me. Some of these are the first ones I'm comfortable with doing.

Let me know what you guys think.

Good job BC.... I have been kinda in a head scratching mode with DVG as of late. Dan is a stand up guy, but lately it seems like their QC and overall play testing has taken a step back. Tiger Leader was missing a card from the production run with other omissions... Maybe they are over loaded or who knows, but I want them to do well therefore I think it is time to re-evaluate their process.

The last couple of releases has been far from smooth in delivery, and to be honest I think they will get it right. I was hoping that Nimitz would get an update/expansion as I am keeping it and like it, however it has fallen short of expectations. I was putting together documentation from the variations Chris was doing with Tiger Leader, but with the announcement of the expansion I have stopped to see what is released. Warfighter's manual was a complete mess, and Tiger Leader and Nimitz are close behind....

DVG is a good company and I will continue to purchase their products, however I feel a re-eval is needed and maybe a different direction on the documentation and outside play testing.

PE

BanzaiCat · July 24, 2015, 10:13:05 AM

Thanks, PE.

I had started doing a re-write of Warfighter also, but stopped months ago. I can't get back into it until I have time to devote to that. It might be easier to start over from scratch since I have no idea where I stopped on it.

bayonetbrant · July 24, 2015, 10:18:44 AM

Quote from: Banzai_Cat on July 24, 2015, 10:13:05 AMI had started doing a re-write of Warfighter also, but stopped months ago.

No, you started a rewrite of "Warfighter: The Special Forces Card Game"

Unless you printed a set of rules from me, you haven't been working on "Warfighter" ;)

BanzaiCat · July 24, 2015, 10:24:34 AM

Jeez, with this again, Brant? :P

Technically you are right, of course, so I stand corrected. :-[

bayonetbrant · July 24, 2015, 11:43:46 AM

O0

BanzaiCat · July 24, 2015, 12:51:33 PM

Regardless, it's clearly a mess structure-wise...at least from my perspective, I could be wrong.

It's also a mess content-wise. In the above TL2.pdf file, I stuck with reorganizing; I might have rewritten 5% of the content, trying to word it better than it was originally, but I haven't read it through for a content change. I figured I'd wait to see what changes DVG makes first.

TacticalWargames · July 25, 2015, 05:21:59 AM

I'm more than happy they will do an advanced version..we will all have a choice then.

I spoke to the game company I bought it from in the UK who then contacted DVG. Seems the free update will be sent to the shop and then onto me so no over seas shipping involved.

It seems like there is going to be a free update..followed at some point by a paid expansion.

GJK · July 25, 2015, 05:43:34 AM

Quote from: Banzai_Cat on July 23, 2015, 11:27:13 AM
I'm really hoping they DON'T go with something more detailed, combat-wise. I kind of rolled my eyes when I saw rules for AP ammo and flank shots and all that crap. I just want something that plays fast and makes general sense.

Really BC? Sorry, I just don't get this statement. Who wouldn't want to actually play a "tank commander" in this thing by simulating those kinds of decisions? Or is the individual tank abstracted in this game and it's more about the platoon or company? I'm just so totally opposite of this statement; I was basically looking for an updated (and German crewed) version of Patton's Best with this one. Clearly this is not that.

TacticalWargames · July 25, 2015, 08:25:41 AM

I agree with GJK. The trouble with TL it's to abstract so we have Mg units taking out tanks etc. Plus the generic same old mission type is to it's detriment aswell. They just haven't got the balance right between abstraction and ease of play and getting realistic results and be fun.

What's great now though is we will have a game for those who enjoy it how it is and a game that's great for those who want abit more detail. Can't see any negative there.