Gateway Games into Computer Wargaming?

[spelk]

I'm trying to come up with a consensus, amongst fellow computer based wargamers, on a definitive (guiding) list of titles that open up the world of computer wargaming for folks who are not that familiar with the usual wargaming tropes and eccentricities.

I want to basically rustle up a document or statement that gives the broadest intro possible, with real enthusiasts commentary/ideas..

I'd like to make it part of the side panel to the sub-reddit I populate with wargaming news as best I can.

https://www.reddit.com/r/computerwargames/

I could tell my story, and the titles that helped me along, but that's probably a story I've babbled on about elsewhere, and it might not be the best path for others to follow.

So, if you have any advice/comments/ideas about the best place to start, the best titles to look at, and how the hobby develops over time, ie. what titles you move on to from the early teasers and more accessible ones.. I'd appreciate any Grogs input.

Naturally there'd be glowing references back to the grogs and this place..(as always). :)

[Nefaro]

I would have doubts as to whether those of us who've been familiar with wargaming for decades is a good place to get modern info on introductional gateways to the hobby.   Dunno how many times I've seen people recommend noobs start by learning ASL, or a slew of other rules-heavy wargames.  ;D

You'll probably get many recommendations for long out-of-print antiques and old PC games which the hardcore old-timers think are easy for beginners but really aren't.

Have you ever looked for someone who got into it in recent years and asked them about the 'whys & hows' of it?  I think such a Journeyman's experiences would be interesting to both rookies and the old grumblers (despite all the usual grumbling).

Just a thought. *shrug*

[steve58]

RISK...no doubt.

[Rayfer]

Nefaro makes some good points. This sort of question has come up before in different forms, and people often answer with a list of their personal favorites without regard to complexity and depth of knowledge needed to actually play the game.  You also need to sub-divide the list into time periods, i.e ancient, Napoleonic, modern, etc, as well as by tactical, operational and strategic. Interest in a war game often goes along with the persons interest in the time period and whether they want to move and fire individual tanks or tank corps. Price can be a factor as well. You can pick up the original Strategic Command: European Conflict for $9.99 on GOG (not on sale...it's half that during sales) which IMHO is an excellent game suggestion for someone looking to get into the hobby. Combat Mission: Beyond Overlord (same price on GOG) is a good tactical level suggestion.

[jomni]

WITP....

[JasonPratt]

Wait wait wait, someone just said that CM:BO is now available on GoG, but I know that that's unpossib--

--holy bleep, Battlefront has started releasing old games on Gog!!

I mean, I guess it helps that they released it through Strategy First first. But still. I never thought they'd ungrip any of their games again. Can AKorps and BB be far behind? (Probably, since those games are still played... ;) )

[panzerde]

I had the same thought as Nefaro and Rayfer when I first read this, but more from the personal perspective: I realized I had no idea how to answer this. The games that introduced me to computer wargaming don't exist anymore. I can from a fair few years of board wargaming, and so the computer games I first played were selected because they could provide me with an easier way of playing what I already enjoyed, not for ease of play for a noob. What I play today...well, I have a hard time seeing how much of it would be of interest to someone not already pretty interested in the more hardcore aspects of the hobby.

Asked this, I wouldn't likely respond myself. What I would probably do is grab Jim, and ask him - because hardened grognard that he is, he also has a young son he's initiating into the secret ways of our cult, and he spends a fair amount of time finding games they can play together.

Frankly I'd have better answers about this on the boardgaming front, mostly due to introducing people to the hobby at Origins.

[JasonPratt]

Meanwhile, the gateway into computer wargaming question is something I've been thinking about for my nieces. (And to a lesser extent my brother if he ever gets back into it. And/or ever agrees to let the nieces get into it. ;) )

Panzer Korps (or any Panzer General version or remake, maybe including the Fantasy Wars / Elven Legacy games, which are totally Panzer General but with bright high fantasy graphics.) Naturally some are more groggy than others, such as that Matrix game and its recent remake about Barbarossa. (I don't mean Decisive Campaigns.)

Unity of Command, which to be fair verges on being a PG variation, but gives a lot of flavor to high-level strategy management. Even then it's generally the simplest PG-ish game I know of. (So simple it isn't Panzer General anymore really.)

X-Com (in various flavors). But the modern Enemy Within simplifies things down to a more introductory level, especially on the campaign and how things are introduced that way.

Master of Magic or any accessible modern successors.

I would almost recommend Space Hulk: Ascension --  I think SH1 might be a little too hardcore about the rules, but maybe that as a pure boardgame adaptation.

Blood Bowl: Chaos Edition? (If the new BB2 seems a bit too thin on content yet comparatively. The other one still works fine, as an introduction to the system if the AI is a little wonky sometimes.)

Combat Mission games, in small scenarios.

Freedom Force and its sequel are a clever squad-management campaign game.

Etherlords 2 is a great tutor campaign on the basic of many card-battle game mechanics, including as an introduction to MTG (which nowadays has good and flexible free entry options.)

Small World 2 for map management with lots of variation and rather easy and basic rules.

Card Hunter again a free tactical RPG turn-based fighter.

WH40: Regicide would be way too bloody (and gutty) for the nieces, but as an introduction to chess, whoooaahhh...

Vietnam '65 an easy and accessible hex-based campaign with fairly unique rules and an uncommon theme.

Man, I could go on for hours. I haven't even gotten to console or mobile games either...

[MetalDog]

Panzer General?  Or is it Panzer Corps now?  An easy RTS like Warcraft used to be.  Maybe Age Of Empires?  Civilization?  I know on the easiest level, they hand hold you through an entire game.  Those are all entry level games.  They should have a broad appeal and enough people have played them that any discussion you have with more experienced gamers could use those games as a reference point.

[Rayfer]

JP...your post listing various games made me chuckle because it opens the door to the old question; what constitutes a war game? Some would include chess and other such games, your list includes Xcom and Masters of Magic, and a case can be made that they are war games. In my mind and way of thinking of it, they're not. To me a war game in some way tries to simulate real historic events. I get the thinking behind chess, Masters of Magic, etc. being war games because they include combat and strategic options, but in my little universe, although I own and play them, they aren't what I consider a war game.

[Staggerwing]

I'd have to say that the most influential computer game to get me into more computer war games was Steel Panthers, which I bought at first release in 1995. Damn! can it really have been twenty years!?!  :o

[jomni]

Mainstream titles like Total War and Civilization.

[spelk]

Thanks for all the comments, I totally understand how difficult a question this is, based on interests, years of service to the hobby and the variety on offer nowadays - not to mention the historical backlog of great and interesting titles that can keep surfacing (Campaigns on the Danube, I'm looking directly at you, Sir!).

Imagine if you will, an average gamer, been around the block a bit, played a few strategy related titles (perhaps Civ, a Total War here and there, maybe even an incarnation of EU) and suddenly they find themselves staring across the horizon towards titles like Panzer Corps, Decisive Campaigns, War in the East, and any other chit shufflers you can think of. They are enthusiastic enough to be able to consider these titles, the history involved, the lure of depth and complexity, but they have no frame of reference in terms of how to begin to play them or how to choose which title to lay the first few dollars/pounds on.

What would you suggest?

I think I would probably point (initially) towards the likes of...

Battle Academy 1 & 2
Panzer Corps / Order of Battle
Unity of Command
Ultimate General Gettysburg
Battle of the Bulge (Shenandoah)
Hegemony Gold
R.U.S.E.
Pike and Shot

Then once they had a grasp of these sort of titles, and wanted to move more towards the operational chit shuffling stuff

Decisive Campaigns
Flashpoint Campaigns
John Tillers Panzer Campaigns
War in the East/West
Schwerpunkt's World War II Europe
Conflicts Series (Android)

The Tactical

Command: Modern Air/Naval Operations
Close Combat
Combat Mission

If they have a particular Strategic/logistics bent

AGEOD Games
Hearts of Iron
Commander Series


I can see how difficult it is to specify particular titles in the ladder of exploring computer wargaming, and a lot of non-historical and even fantasy titles can scratch a similar itch.

Anymore comments would be most welcome...

[FarAway Sooner]

I'm applying a very liberal definition of "wargaming" here--i.e., computer games that involve killing stuff.  But will add:

1) Heroes of Might & Magic (any version, HoMM VI is pretty accessible)
2) Panzer Corps
3) Any sports management sim (pick your target's favorite sport)
4) Might & Magic Clash of Heroes or PuzzleQuest I (think a blend of RPG and Match-3 games)
5) Any of the Diablo clones out there

If you want to introduce somebody to just historical computer wargaming, Panzer Corps is your safest bet.  JMHO.

[Bison]

Battle Academy
Panzer Corps