March of the Eagles (Preview)

[panzerde]

I really liked the original AGEOD Napoleon title, but this looks to be a much high level of abstraction and scale.  For anyone that's played so far, does this feel more like CK2 or Vicky 2, or do you get a sense you could actually fight a recognizable campaign like Ulm or Jena?

I like the Clauswitz engine for games like CK2, but I do like my Napoleonics a bit more operational level...

[sandman2575]

Willpower did not hold out long... had to buy it...

First impressions are very positive.

Panzerde -- the feel is definitely of a Paradox title, not AGEOD.  Visually the only thing they kept from Napoleon's Campaigns seems to be the portraits of the generals, and perhaps a bit of the UI aesthetic. (Curiously, no mention whatsoever of the AGEOD team in the Credits... unless I'm missing something...)

There are some regrettable things that have gotten sacrificed -- for me, the biggest being the original's emphasis on OOB and detailed operational aspects.  The level of detail of Corps, Divisions, etc. is gone.  It's been replaced by a more generic organization around Army Commanders-in-Chief and subordinate Flank commanders.  So yeah that's a bit disappointing, albeit not surprising.

That said, the military organizational aspects are definitely more nuanced than CK2 or Vicky2. There is a framework for chain of command, operational organization, etc.  It's just nowhere near the level of detail you get with AGEOD.

[panzerde]

Panzerde -- the feel is definitely of a Paradox title, not AGEOD.  Visually the only thing they kept from Napoleon's Campaigns seems to be the portraits of the generals, and perhaps a bit of the UI aesthetic. (Curiously, no mention whatsoever of the AGEOD team in the Credits... unless I'm missing something...)

That said, the military organizational aspects are definitely more nuanced than CK2 or Vicky2. There is a framework for chain of command, operational organization, etc.  It's just nowhere near the level of detail you get with AGEOD.

Thanks sandman.  About what I expected, and I'll probably buy it.  I'm still wishing for an updated Napoleon's Campaigns, though!

[PanzersEast]

Just a couple of observations:

This is the Napoleonic area, so first and foremost this is a time of war. 

The military in MoE is in between CK2 and an AGEOD game (closer to HOI).  You have control of the composition of Armies and there are various unit types you can train place within them.  The composition of the army is up to you.  You can assign leaders to each of the flank compositions and the army as an whole.  They have their own ratings and when lead you army into battle, they will gain certain traits.  The one thing I do not like is that your leaders cannot be KIA or WIA.

The diplomatic options are on par with EU3, however no casus belli is needed to declare war.

Economy model gets the job done, nothing deep, but something you have to watch.

Attrition can be a killer......  when you have large armies, pay attention to the several factors, one being the support limit in a province(s), weather etc...

The UI is very clean and easy to navigate for information.  There are touches of AGEOD here and there, the day and night cycle in the time menu.  The leader portraits are done well.

I like the feel of the game, seems to be on the lighter side but in this case I think it lends it self very well. It is not trying to be all things.  So far have not encountered any show stopping bugs.   

PE

[MetalDog]

Keep the impressions coming fellas.  Any time I hear MP talk brewing, my interest is piqued.

[Nefaro]

Just an update:  my message settings are working now.  Problem must've been between the keyboard and the chair.  :P

PanzersEast's mention of the military side of things being somewhat closer to HOI3's level of unit detail is a good comparison.  I'm enjoying the extra control over the makeup and each wing's set tactic.  I hope they use or expand on this system for EU4. 

The most difficult part of MotE is that there are soooo many provinces.  It's difficult to move your view about, trying to keep up with managing your armies while at war, since there are so many to take care of in such a large space.  I've started games for both Austria and Russia - they're both a bit of a pain to keep up with when things get hot.  I've found that it's easier to just concentrate on moving to the provinces that contain cities, as the rest of them just instantly flip when you enter, so it's all about fighting over the cities.

The Supply/Support Limit system is a good thing because it can be brutal against even moderately-sized forces.  I'm not sure if the Baggage Train unit helps with that or if it is just for the +10% attack bonus that it lends to combat units in the same army (this is very AGE-like & one of the things that reminds me of their earlier influence).  So it's best to rush the enemy's concentrated forces with your own large ones, and get the big fight(s) over with ASAP before your armies start melting away in enemy territory.  Then you can split them up and spread out while on the move through the city-less provinces.  Since you capture those so quickly, their support limit will increase immediately but they're still rather thin compared to city-provinces (which you have to siege the classic Clausewitz way).  One issue with the supply/support limit is that the normal Clausewitz indicators, for telling you whether your currently selected army will suffer attrition in another province you point the cursor at, doesn't utilize all the factors.  So while the little move arrow is colored green (meaning no attrition if you move to that province) and the support requirement vs limit tooltip with the specific numbers may say that your army is within limits, it sometimes isn't.  I suspect the extra penalties for adverse terrain isn't being factored into the equation for the tooltip & pointer because I'll still have some attrition running sometimes, on arrival. :-[

Despite not knowing some little details such as everything the Baggage Trains do, for example, and some minor oddities like battle sounds missing & support numbers/indicators being incorrect, I'm having fun with the game.

[tgb]

Looking at this has inspired me to reinstall Crown of Glory:Emperor's Edition, still the best Napoleonic game on the PC.  Now I just have to re-learn how to play it.

[sandman2575]

Might be worth mentioning -- on the nation management side, MotE gameplay will feel very familiar to anyone who knows Vicky 2.  Province improvement, diplomacy, supply are all similar -- closer to Vicky than HOI in this respect.  In general actually, it seems closer to Vicky than HOI to me.

Although one thing I don't get -- in MOTE, you can recruit units directly from provinces a la Vicky -- but unlike Vicky, the province population capacities seem to have no bearing on how many units you can recruit from that province...?  Seems to remove a Vicky logistical element that I found interesting.

In a nutshell, MotE seems to take the CK2 map, a stripped down (dumbed down?) version of Vicky2 nation management, and adds a deeper dimension of military / combat than either of those games.

[PanzersEast]

I expect to see a lot of mods, this game is highly mod-able.

On the note of provinces..... it is true there are a lot of provinces, however if there is not a major city or fort you will take ownership of the province simply by occupying it (there is no siege).  So as you make your way to a targeted province, you will take control of the other provinces as you pass through.

So far I actually like the balance of the game.  This is a wargame and not a grand strategy game....

This should be a very good Multiplayer experience and I hope to get one going soon.... potential for some interesting situations.....

PE

[sandman2575]

...all these reports of ping pong battles, with defeated enemy armies retreating further into your territory (and thus occupying it) rather than retreating back into their own, are a little worrying--

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?668941-Ping-pong-army-behaviour...so-boring

[PanzersEast]

...all these reports of ping pong battles, with defeated enemy armies retreating further into your territory (and thus occupying it) rather than retreating back into their own, are a little worrying--

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?668941-Ping-pong-army-behaviour...so-boring

This has been an issue in CK2 as well....  I would imagine this will get fixed, however it is annoying.  There are already several mods going up and a Death and Taxes mod for MoTE.

Also another small mod that (1792 Mod):

* 9 New buildings - keep revolts down with the Courthouse building chain, or raise taxes with a bank.

* About 12 new countries (atm), including a load of new Italian and HRE states.

* Ideas now mostly gained from passive research; build Universities and develop your towns to improve idea point rate.

* Rebalanced government bonuses

* Rebalanced unit costs. Up. A lot.

* All major powers now start out with all their National Ideas, so that they're a bit more customized (and since 90% of the national ideas were stuff that happened in the 18th century).

* Extended timeline from 1792-1820


PE

[Nefaro]

...all these reports of ping pong battles, with defeated enemy armies retreating further into your territory (and thus occupying it) rather than retreating back into their own, are a little worrying--

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?668941-Ping-pong-army-behaviour...so-boring

The Pdox games have always had the ping pong effect.  I think it has improved, but it's still there and it doesn't look like they'll ever put in a hard solution for dissolving a repeatedly defeated and demoralized army no matter how many times it's whittled down to almost nothing.

One behavior regarding retreating armies feels a bit different to me in MotE.  I've defeated a few armies and they tend to automatically switch to the 'Avoid Combat' command when they're running away with no morale left.  Because, unlike most previous games, I can't always bring such a demoralized force to combat when I command my victorious army to follow them.  I consider the Evade army order to be a good improvement as it's helped model things that couldn't be done before, such as harassing an enemy army to slow them down, with a cavalry unit set to 'Evade' making an enemy army briefly stop for an engagement test for example, or sending a small scouting force ahead.  I think it tries to use that command as default for a defeated army so that it has a better chance of fleeing over a distance.  I'm not quite sure yet if it has some hang-ups but it's a needed improvement.  The army orders, ovarall, are a nice addition and lends a bit more strategy other than moving your big megastack into an enemy megastack and then just chasing the loser through a bunch of provinces while it ping pongs.   

The slow reinforcement rate is what really limits a nation's armies in the fight after the big battles take their toll, as it lengthens how quickly a defeated army can come back from big losses compared to previous games.  Even with full supply, it seems like replacements are pretty slow to refill and that's a nice change.  I don't think any of my armies in my current Russo-Swedish war has ever fully regained their peacetime full-strength numbers of soldiers, even after months-long R&R in a well-supplied location.  Much better military modelling on points like this. 

Looking at this has inspired me to reinstall Crown of Glory:Emperor's Edition, still the best Napoleonic game on the PC.  Now I just have to re-learn how to play it.

I had eyed COG for years, but the mix of a fixed low-resolution, a UI rumored to be a bit annoying, and a premium $50 price tag for the digital edition didn't entice me.  I've recently read some sadness about the game being left with some reportedly annoying issues but the sales were never enough to warrant more updates (says a Dev) so even the re-release with more features didn't sound like it did too well or hit it's full potential.  :-[  Maybe someday they'll mark it down enough to make me jump. *shrug*

[undercovergeek]

...all these reports of ping pong battles, with defeated enemy armies retreating further into your territory (and thus occupying it) rather than retreating back into their own, are a little worrying--

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?668941-Ping-pong-army-behaviour...so-boring

The Pdox games have always had the ping pong effect.  I think it has improved, but it's still there and it doesn't look like they'll ever put in a hard solution for dissolving a repeatedly defeated and demoralized army no matter how many times it's whittled down to almost nothing.

fixed for EU4 im given to understand - and theres a new feature that completely decimates an army if theres low morale and they scatter

[Nefaro]

...all these reports of ping pong battles, with defeated enemy armies retreating further into your territory (and thus occupying it) rather than retreating back into their own, are a little worrying--

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?668941-Ping-pong-army-behaviour...so-boring

The Pdox games have always had the ping pong effect.  I think it has improved, but it's still there and it doesn't look like they'll ever put in a hard solution for dissolving a repeatedly defeated and demoralized army no matter how many times it's whittled down to almost nothing.

fixed for EU4 im given to understand - and theres a new feature that completely decimates an army if theres low morale and they scatter

It's supposedly been minimized in CK2 but I'm sure it's still there.  Just not as bad as in the past.

And one of the Pdox mods did mention that a defeated and demoralized army in MOTE tries to evade combat while it moves a distance away to a "rally point".  I had wondered why my armies were having problems initiating combat when I was following a defeated stack - that just confirmed.  So it doesn't seem like those little beaten up armies are really meant to be completely annihilated, at least in MOTE.  The problem is that the AI doesn't actually rest & refit such beaten up armies when they reach the distant "rally" city location - they turn around and come charging right back at your stack without taking on replacements for awhile.  If they could fix the latter AI problem (at least in MOTE's case) I'd be happy since Manpower and replacement rates are pretty damn slow.

[magnus]

 One very unhistorical part of my first game is that Great Britain has landed 120K+ on Italian and German shores and I have only made it to May 1806.

I have been able to destroy all their armies but in no way should it be possible for them to field so many troops.

I am still having the ping-pong effect in fighting the British armies.

Their armies are also at times 1000-500 men and are still wandering about from province to province.

Now, going by the devs posting this should not be happening. But maybe it is because they are not near any of their own provinces having been all from naval landings. It is possible when I fight an adjacent country their armies might act differently.