Let's Talk: Wargame or Not

[Bison]

Brant I'll need to read that article later when I can actually process what it says. 

[LongBlade]

Dang. Every time I try to reply there are a bunch of new replies I have to read.

I'm going to have to just bite the bullet, compose a reply and miss a few comments in between thinking and posting.

[Grimnirsson]

if it's not competitive, it's not a game.  it can be realistic (and therefore considered a "simulation"), but it's not a game.

Depends on the definition of 'competition'...if you mean other players then what about Solitaire wargames? The goal is still there, the setting, the units, even the enemies, but no other player involved. :)

[Bison]

Yes but you are still competing to accomplish an objective.

[Tuna]

Yikes this is worse than listening to the Geeks at works argue about what is heavy metal or not...  :o

[Barthheart]

Clearly there is a boundry between simulation and wargame.  Then there is a realism factor and some other odds and ends.

I don't think so





much more here
http://grognews.blogspot.com/2012/03/battle-lab-games-and-sims-for-training.html

Chess is then not a wargame by these diagrams......

Also what is the lower right quadrant? Sex?

[Bison]

Everyone gets a trophy sporting concepts would be my guess for the lower right quadrant.

[Bison]

Yikes this is worse than listening to the Geeks at works argue about what is heavy metal or not...  :o

Motorhead is heavy metal.  Poison is not.

[Barthheart]

Yikes this is worse than listening to the Geeks at works argue about what is heavy metal or not...  :o

Motorhead is heavy metal.  Poison is not.

Bingo!

[Tuna]

Clearly there is a boundry between simulation and wargame.  Then there is a realism factor and some other odds and ends.

I don't think so





much more here
http://grognews.blogspot.com/2012/03/battle-lab-games-and-sims-for-training.html

Chess is then not a wargame by these diagrams......

Also what is the lower right quadrant? Sex?

That's why Barth doesn't show up for WARlock some nights!

[Tuna]

Yikes this is worse than listening to the Geeks at works argue about what is heavy metal or not...  :o

Motorhead is heavy metal.  Poison is not.

Bingo!

Lol.. I just can't believe some of the guys say Sabbath ain't!!.. I'm not a huge Metal Head.. but Sabbath and Deep Purple were my Metal... 80's stuff most of it was glam... but just funny listening to the 'kids' at work argue about it..

[LongBlade]

First, I love this stuff. We get to discuss the merits of an issue that doesn't matter to anyone but us. :)

Second, let's talk about wargames.

For better or worse I have to make this decision every year when we do a Game of the Year or Readers' Choice. It doesn't mean I'm right or that I have more authority, but it does mean I have to put my money where my mouth is and potentially catch flak for mis-categorizing a game.

Brant's four dimensional definition is a good starting point. A competitive simulation is a generic description of a wargame. I think there's more to it than simulating something and being competitive, though. A NASCAR racing game simulates driving a race car. It is not a wargame.

A game that simulates some aspect of war is a wargame.

OK, how about Rome: Total War?

That's a tough call. The Total War series has "war" in its name. For some folks that settles the debate there. (not for me) Total War is actually two games in one. It has a great tactical layer which looks a whole lot like an honest-to-God wargame and it has a turn-based strategic layer that is a solid economic, political, and military strategy game. It *could* be called a wargame on both the tactical and strategic layers. However, I don't have it compete in the wargaming category.

Why?

Probably first and foremost because its sheer popularity would crush companies like Battlefront, Slitherine, and Shrapnel. They'd never get a good shot a winning the niche wargaming title up against games with colossal budgets and fantastic production values.

But also, while Total War's tactical game is pretty close to a real wargame, the strategic layer feels more gamey than sim. And I have a bias - I tend to look at Total War games as more strategic games than tactical, although there is plenty of room for discussion about that. In my view, Total War games are then strategy games.

What about Call of Duty? Definitely not a wargame.

Why? Where to start? It's not a simulation. Despite the huge investment in modeling weapons, sounds, rate of fire, and penetration values, a simple glance at the mechanics tells you it's not "real." In many cases it takes two or three bullets to put down an opponent. Looking back to WWII versions even the BAR took at least two direct hits to take out an opponent. Not real. Period.

Red Orchestra? Yes, from the ground up it was designed to be realistic. However, for the sake of consistency I place it in the FPS category. Could it be placed into the tactical wargaming category with Command Ops Battles from the Bulge? Yes, but it shouldn't.

So now we get closer to the heart of things. Within the wargaming genre there are still sub-categories. Generally I create two: tactical and strategic. If a year sees a large number of releases of wargames sometimes I'll divide things into real-time and turn-based.

For better or worse, the map design has no bearing on my decision to include a game in the wargame category. Close Combat, Combat Mission, and Steel Panthers all qualify as wargames in my opinion. Naval War: Arctic Circle does not. It attempted to be a naval wargame but ended up more as a strategy game. It wasn't quite real enough for me to be a true wargame.

Generally speaking then to be a wargame I need to see three things: history, accuracy, armed conflict. Within those broad definitions things can vary widely, but the more a game offers of each of them the more likely it will be considered a wargame in my eyes.

[Grimnirsson]

Motorhead is heavy metal.

Sorry to disagree here as well - as a big Motörhead fan! - Motörhead is not heavy metal,  it's in fact hardrock, rock'n roll on speed. Ask Lemmy :)

On being labeled a "heavy metal" band:

Lemmy: "We were not heavy metal. We were a rock 'n' roll band. Still are. Everyone always describes us as heavy metal even when I tell them otherwise. Why won't people listen?"

Ok, back on topic :P

[bayonetbrant]

Also what is the lower right quadrant? Sex?

BOGSATs and tabletop exercises...

[MikeGER]

...thinking about chess brought me to another aspect of discriminating

  wargame from strategy game

If the wargame does not 'have a dice'  (some kind of randomisation build in) its a strategy game.
(because the results are always strict reproducible, and winning the game can be reduced to just solving a very complex mathematical problem... like chess)

on the other hand: If a strategy game 'have a dice', its not automatically a wargame.
(because, the randomization may not be directed to fights, or the main purpose of the game is not the fighting, and the battles are only strawn in for the flavor and customer expectation)

....i will declare the strategy game Chess a Wargame honorary  ;)