My frustration with Combat Mission - still!

[JudgeDredd]

So I fired this up last night (and the night before actually) and found myself infuriated with the design as I always end up doing.

Most of my frustration comes from some key things - which leave me sitting there thinking "Really?" as my wee pixel troops keel over.

So it's in the bocage. The first infuriating thing is trying to identify holes in the bocage...it's a whole other thing watching your troops get murdered as they go through that hole...but ne'ar mind that. Trying to find a hole.

The next thing, again with bocage, is trying to position your MG-42 in such a way that it can actually fire through that hole. I do not know how many times I tried to get that MG-42 positioned at the hole so it could cover the farmhouse not 100 yards away. In the end, they went the other side and were under fire in short order.

The next thing is visibility. At roughly the same location, I was coming under sporadic fire from the farmhouse. So I get my troops and target the building...but the LoS seems to stop half way across the field. I'm looking, from ground level where my troops are, straight towards the building only to see the top two levels of the building. I'm trying to target the building...not specific enemy troops which are highlighted (light green) by the way so presumably my troops know they're there...and cannot...from half way across the field...and I'm left wondering WHY?

Then there's the Target Arcs. This could be my lack of understanding. But here goes...I saw a Stuart tank less than 50 yards across the field. I set my Panzerschreck team to Target Armour Arc to the location where the tank is and then move them to the edge of the bocage where they can have a good fire position...when they get there, they do nothing. Not a thing. Just sit there looking to the right hand side of the tank because apparently because their viewing position has changed, so has their "Target Armour Arc"...to the right of the tank.

There are those big stupid highlighted squares that show up when you are trying to move troops. You just cannot set them with any degree of accuracy.

Eventually, I get my Panzershreck team up into the farm building. I have a platoon on the second floor who took out the enemy unit in there and they are now providing suppressing fire. The PS team have a clear LoS to the tank. It's less than 100 yards away on a lane. I order the team, time and again, to attack the tank. I try the Target Armour Arc again to leave it to them...nothing. I try targeting it specifically...again nothing. All they do is move from the top floor to the middle floor. With my PS team selected there is a highlighted tank icon above the Stuart...so they can see it. And they have 5 rounds left.

Don't even get me started on 1 minute impulses which I accidentally switched on for the scenario.

I find the game something I really, really want to play. Everything about the game is right up my street...but the mechanisms in place just make it infuriating. It is an exercise in futility and patience.

I do not doubt my little pixel soldiers die quite often through a lack of my tactical skills...but there is definitely a lack of finesse with positioning, LoS and LoF which makes the game incredibly frustrating for me.

Perhaps the engine isn't suited to the bocage with the lack of accuracy for placing troops? Maybe that's why I much prefer CMSF? CMSF does not have the enclosed, tight spaces this has and therefore likely less frustrating - though I do prefer the modern weapons (just not the region).

Everything about this game and engine screams "LOVE ME". It should be my gaming nirvana. Unfortunately, I end up feeling totally mentally screwed after playing a very, very small scenario - 3 platoons, an MG unit, a Panzershreck unit and a scout car.

[ArizonaTank]

I have some of the same issues.  This is why I frequently fire up CMx1.  Just seems to play more smoothly.

[Nefaro]

To be fair, I don't think any 3D games at this level have ever been able to smoothly model bocage fighting.

Nevertheless, I also have trouble getting some LOS positioning and troop placement to work as they look like they should.  Nature of the beast?

[JudgeDredd]

I just wish I could enjoy it as much as others seem to. It's not like the game should fight me from a requirement perspective...it's everything I would want in a tactical game

Maybe I should try Fortress Italy and get the hell out of the bocage

[jomni]

Go play other theatres.
Those that don't have bocage.
And play in real time.

But as for me, I stopped playing CMSF a long time ago and not looking to play more of it.  It was a good game though.

[JudgeDredd]

That what I said - Fortress Italy might give me a better experience. It could be that it will give me enough of a positive experience that Market Garden might become a temptation.

I do play in real time...I just accidentally set it to 1 minute pulses last night. What a nightmare trying to get multiple things to happen in that minute or wasting enough seconds that your troops get discovered and slaughtered!

And I never had a problem with CMSF (except the theatre). I always thought I preferred that over CM:BfN because of the modern weapons, but I found that strange as I've always been very interested in WWII - especially hardware...who doesn't like a Firefly, M10, Panther of Tiger? But it actually could be more frustrating because of the bocage and it's that which kills it for me.

[undercovergeek]

Panzershreks wont fire from a building

You can only target any part of a building when you can see ALL of the buildings foot print, or a unit in it

trust the tac ai - run the shrek team to the hedge and leave the AI to control the team, if they can see the tank, theyll shoot at it, the last thing you should try and do is micromanage the troops, i have and will continue to play whole month long pbems without giving any of my troops a target order, theyll do it themselves when they get there, just get them to a firing point safely and in good order and they will do the rest themselves

[JudgeDredd]

Panzershreks wont fire from a building

lol - well, I did say my tactical abilities could be cause for some concern. However that was the best vantage point as the tank was the opposite side to a field of bocage. Is that historically accurate or a limitation on the game?

So - these troops, the MG-42 bunch, they were on a hill, and because they couldn't see the base of the building, they couldn't shoot at the upper floors? WOW. I never knew that - and more to the point, there must've been a very good reason for it (though for the life of me I can't figure it out) because that's bizarre in the extreme and most definitely seems to be the reason why I find this so frustrating!

That's ridiculous. So my troops on a hill can't fire at the 3rd level of a building because they cannot see the base of the building, and so can only suppress whatever is there IF the enemy show their faces...in other words, my troops were taking fire and being suppressed because they couldn't initiate "firepower supremacy"? Oh dear oh dear.

I do, however, take your point on micro managing. But often I want to get my troops to target a seemingly vacant area (say the building at the other end of a field - which you KNOW will be occupied) whilst I move troops across it...called suppression. Don't you ever want to do that?

[Nefaro]

I've always been very interested in WWII - especially hardware...who doesn't like a Firefly, M10, Panther of Tiger?

Big "MEH".

:P

[Nefaro]

That's ridiculous. So my troops on a hill can't fire at the 3rd level of a building because they cannot see the base of the building...

That has always been one of the complaints about CMx2.  It definitely irked me every time I experienced it.

[undercovergeek]

Panzershreks wont fire from a building

lol - well, I did say my tactical abilities could be cause for some concern. However that was the best vantage point as the tank was the opposite side to a field of bocage. Is that historically accurate or a limitation on the game?

So - these troops, the MG-42 bunch, they were on a hill, and because they couldn't see the base of the building, they couldn't shoot at the upper floors? WOW. I never knew that - and more to the point, there must've been a very good reason for it (though for the life of me I can't figure it out) because that's bizarre in the extreme and most definitely seems to be the reason why I find this so frustrating!

That's ridiculous. So my troops on a hill can't fire at the 3rd level of a building because they cannot see the base of the building, and so can only suppress whatever is there IF the enemy show their faces...in other words, my troops were taking fire and being suppressed because they couldn't initiate "firepower supremacy"? Oh dear oh dear.

I do, however, take your point on micro managing. But often I want to get my troops to target a seemingly vacant area (say the building at the other end of a field - which you KNOW will be occupied) whilst I move troops across it...called suppression. Don't you ever want to do that?

re the shreks - im sure IRL its not a very good idea, BUT if it was choke on smoke and dust and suffer deafness for a bit or shoot at the tank right outside the window that was just about to spot me, im sure we'd all fire - but its not modelled

the footpeint - yup, massive PITA, something to do with needing a clear LOS to the centre of the square

[MikeGER]

Panzershreks wont fire from a building

lol - well, I did say my tactical abilities could be cause for some concern. However that was the best vantage point as the tank was the opposite side to a field of bocage. Is that historically accurate or a limitation on the game?

JD you want a historical accurate answer. :)
i went upstairs and asked my dad (89) he was in the field test platoon feb/mar 44 at the eastern front as grunt, his Schirmeister invented that blast shield you all know from the pictures. 8)
He never shot from inside a building at the eastern front or witnessed other doing that ... simply there where just no buildings in the area, just landscape   
He thinks it would have been considered to dangerous that it would have been ordered to do if buildings were available.

[JudgeDredd]

Cool story - thanks MikeGer. That at least explains why they weren't obeying my order to fire.

[Sir Slash]

I'll echo what Geek said. I let my troops sight their own targets mostly, they seem to do a better job than if I tell them where to look and what to shoot at especially if they're experienced. If they are "Green" or have a poor morale or leader rating, then I try to help them out. LOS In the bocage can be frustrating but if your troops can't see anything, try giving them a "Hunt" command along the hedge and let them move along until they spot something. Or if they're LOS is good where they are, leave them there. The AI tanks are blind as a bat when buttoned-up and will occasionally move into your LOS. Give the AI a chance to make a mistake instead of you making one. The Italian theatre plays much differently than Normandy. The LOS is much more open, but enemy units can still hide very well and shoot your ass off clear across the map. Leading with your infantry here is a path to their destruction. It's your tanks that must do the heavy work-- something that would get them killed dead in the bocage. Finally, don't worry about the time limit. The battle will continue for some time after the time is up if your units are still engaged or close to the enemy, as long as an extra 10 min. for me. The biggest mistakes I've made are always RUSHING my advances. Try an easier difficulity level too if the game seems too hard to beat. I believe the game patches have made the game tougher to beat.

[JudgeDredd]

lol - thanks. This was on BASIC. (I did say I was crap in a roundabout way)  :P