Last night was calm (finally, thankfully) after the Highway Patrol came in and helped calm the situation.
Now a story is breaking that the victim of the shooting was the primary suspect in a convenience store robbery just before he was killed.
And...there's video footage of him doing it.
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/08/breaking-photos-released-of-suspect-michael-brown-robbing-store-before-shooting/
O rly...thought he was a total angel. Imagine my shock. Awe, even.
Initial reports made him out to be a poster child for good-boys-in-the-ghetto.
However, I think another lesson here still stands: rolling military hardware into an American city is a Bad IdeaTM.
It will be interesting to see the reaction of the race hustlers for whom this is a terribly inconvenient discovery, especially the pictures of him bullying a much older, smaller person.
On the other hand, I do think the sudden national focus on the militarization of our police force is a good thing. It's a drum I've been beating for a couple of years now. Hopefully some folks, like Sen. Paul, won't walk away from the issue.
Repeating myself.
Quote from: LongBlade on August 15, 2014, 11:10:02 AM
Initial reports made him out to be a poster child for good-boys-in-the-ghetto.
However, I think another lesson here still stands: rolling military hardware into an American city is a Bad IdeaTM.
Ive been ignoring it. are the police using MRAPs?
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on August 15, 2014, 11:16:12 AM
Ive been ignoring it. are the police using MRAPs?
Oh, yeah.
Machine guns, too. I watched an episode of Sons of Guns a couple seasons back where they were mounting a Mk19 grenade launcher on the back of a small sheriff's patrol boat (accompanied by a SAW).
QuoteAccording to the police reports, Brown and his friend, Dorian Johnson, were suspected of taking a box of cigars from a store in Ferguson that morning.
"I am incensed," Laura Keys, 50, told The St. Louis Post-Dispatch. "I can't believe this is the tactic they are using, bringing up a robbery to make the victim look like he was the person who created this whole mess."
Police have said Brown was shot after an officer encountered him and another man on the street. They say one of the men pushed the officer into his squad car, then physically assaulted him in the vehicle and struggled with the officer over the officer's weapon. At least one shot was fired inside the car before the struggle spilled onto the street, where Brown was shot multiple times, according to police.
But a much different story has been told by Dorian Johnson, who says he was walking down the street with Brown when he was shot. He has said the officer ordered them out of the street, then grabbed his friend's neck and tried to pull him into the car before brandishing his weapon and firing. He says Brown started to run and the officer pursued him, firing multiple times.
source: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/08/15/ferguson-police-say-michael-brown-fit-description-strong-arm-robbery-suspect/
I'm so tired of this crap. Especially how people seem to overlook the fact that had this idiot NOT been robbing a store or being a thuggish jackass in the first place, he'd not be cold on a slab right now.
But no, oh no. Momma's gonna cry about how the man shot her poor little beautiful angel, and the news will report that verbatim and completely overlook why it happened in the first place.
Check out this video...quite interesting perspective. Wish more people (of ANY color) thought this way.
Quote from: LongBlade on August 15, 2014, 11:19:15 AM
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on August 15, 2014, 11:16:12 AM
Ive been ignoring it. are the police using MRAPs?
Oh, yeah.
Machine guns, too. I watched an episode of Sons of Guns a couple seasons back where they were mounting a Mk19 grenade launcher on the back of a small sheriff's patrol boat (accompanied by a SAW).
there was also an episode where they rebuilt a NOLA cops WW2 Ferret for police work.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on August 15, 2014, 11:27:28 AM
there was also an episode where they rebuilt a NOLA cops WW2 Ferret for police work.
I saw that. It looked suspiciously like it was originally owned by the Afrika Korps.
Quote from: Steelgrave on August 15, 2014, 11:11:07 AM
It will be interesting to see the reaction of the race hustlers for whom this is a terribly inconvenient discovery, especially the pictures of him bullying a much older, smaller person.
On the other hand, I do think the sudden national focus on the militarization of our police force is a good thing. It's a drum I've been beating for a couple of years now. Hopefully some folks, like Sen. Paul, won't walk away from the issue.
It is funny how the media is just now picking up the beat of this drum but only because of the racially charge situation. :(
The attention on the militarization of US police departments is long overdue. I live in Maine and every powdunk PD is ready for WW3.
Maybe it's time to start wargaming some of this stuff.
What would happen if there was a turf war between some Local LEO Juice and either the County, the State, or Los Federales? Say some sheriff's son got caught wicking his dip in unripe forbidden fruit and the domino fallout was likely to bring down an entire local political dynasty. The Sheriff and his cousins Deputies refuse to give up the wayward lad and his growing evidence, despite said evidence's Senator Grandmother and army of lawyers. The Governor gets involved and sends in the Nat'l Guard to effect an arrest. The Locals have hardware and terrain savvy. The Staties have hardware and an AG up for re-election. The supporting Federales have air support.
Where do you think it will happen first, if at all? How far will it go? How do we work the Media into the game so it can potentially benefit either side?
I don't know if I can see that happening. Isn't there a strong comraderie between LEO of all types? The long blue line?
Quote from: Staggerwing on June 12, 1970, 06:31:11 PM
Where do you think it will happen first, if at all? How far will it go? How do we work the Media into the game so it can potentially benefit either side?
Check out Brian Train's Battle of Seattle as a starting point
I see two possible scenarios forming, but I'm in no mood to red shirt this for DHS, who will only return the favor by further violating the 4 Amendment and adding me to yet another absurd list.
Sorry, Stagger. Over a beer sometime.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on August 15, 2014, 10:14:49 PM
Check out Brian Train's Battle of Seattle as a starting point
I'll do that. Thanks
Quote from: LongBlade on August 15, 2014, 10:31:56 PM
... Over a beer sometime.
Hopefully I'll be able to take you up on that someday. :)
A recording has emerged of a conversation moments after the shooting.
The witness describes the victim as having run away then turned around and come back toward the officers, who had already drawn their guns.
If true then it would support justifiable use of force.
source: http://www.ijreview.com/2014/08/168698-eyewitness-recalls-important-detail-background-video-mins-ferguson-shooting/
Quote from: LongBlade on August 17, 2014, 11:11:31 AM
A recording has emerged of a conversation moments after the shooting.
The witness describes the victim as having run away then turned around and come back toward the officers, who had already drawn their guns.
If true then it would support justifiable use of force.
source: http://www.ijreview.com/2014/08/168698-eyewitness-recalls-important-detail-background-video-mins-ferguson-shooting/
Like the video of Brown stealing from that C-Store and pushing/intimidating a much smaller, older clerk....this is clearly more character assassination designed to denigrate an innocent kid who would never hurt someone. Besides, now that the "Justice" department is involved ( with 40 FBI agents assigned, no less ) this case will be the next big Trayvon Martin media circus just in time for the November elections :P
its also a great domestic vehicle thats taken most attention away from problems overseas.
nothing beats Jew/Arab news better then Cop/Black news. and after those two who gives a shit about some bride farmers in the ass end of Europe.
One thing that surprises be about this whole, is that in a age when someone cannot take a piss behind a tree without it being caught on tape, no one seems to have recorded this whole. Daytime, middle of the road.
Looking at the one drawing that showed where Brown was hit by bullets, it almost seems funny that a) there were no hits to his chest and abdomen. b) that if the first rounds hit the arm and proceeded up, then it would almost say that the police officer started to fire while raising his gun.
One final thought. No one has given a single reason why this cop would have just shot this guy in the middle of the street in broad daylight. A cop that doesn't seem to have any complaints against him. No one has come out and tied him to any kind of hate group. If this was some dark alley in the middle of the night or it was found that he was a nazi, then I think it would be a pretty open and shut case.
If the kid really did hit that store just before the confrontation he might have figured he was busted when he ran into the cop and had little to lose by jumping him. The irony of course being the cop didn't know about the robbery.
If I remember correctly, the cop was on his way to another call when he encountered these two. If I had to guess, I'm guessing the cop told them to get out of the middle of the street and was ready to move on, but one or both of these two started to run their mouths.
Patience and shuffle the cards.
- Cervantes
St. Louis resident here. Man, I don't know where to start.
First, the riots are taking place in North St. Louis County. There are many, many municipalities in the St. Louis area; Furgeson is just one of them. The looting and burning is not confined to Furgeson. As a matter of fact, a place I worked at years ago was one of the ones burned to the ground.
Second, large swathes are North County are gang war zones. The murder rate in the St. Louis area in almost the highest in the country, most of the murders are young blacks killing each other and innocent bystanders. In fact, a week before Mike Brown was killed, a grandmother walking her three grandchildren down the street was murdered in the crossfire of two rival gangs. A little girl died in crossfire not long ago also.
There is absolutely no context given in the media about the area and the crime ridden nature of the thugs that roam the streets at night. Gangs of thugs roaming the streets at night is not a new thing. Every local media source is walking on egg shells and the local politicians are scared to death. Not one single politician, even the idiot Governor, will tell people the truth. The truth is the cop is probably not going to be charged with murder. When that fact finally comes out- there will be mass chaos and the real violence will start. They will regret the day they attempted to appease and reason with a mob.
Mike Brown was a thug, plain and simple. They are legion in the area where the shooting took place. He robbed a store moments before the officer stopped him for walking in the middle of a major street. During the initial contact, the officer figured out that they were the thugs that robbed the market (which has subsequently been looted and burned). Apparently a scuffle took place and there was a struggle for the officers weapon. The officer was struck (fist to face) and the thugs attempted to flee and the officer gave chase. According to the other thug that was with Brown, Brown raised his hands in surrender and was shot several times. According to the officer, Brown began to charge (at which point he fired).
Needless to say, unless there is good eyewitness testimony from a credible witness, a charge of murder has no chance of surviving at trial.
So, as it stands, nobody outside of St. Louis really understands what is going on because the media is either lazy or deathly afraid to provide context to the situation. Now, let me say, there are real racial problems in St. Louis. There is a history of racism and segregation that continues to this day. If the protests were about that, I wouldn't mind them so much. Unfortunately, the protests are about the assumed guilt of a racist cop and a demand that he be charged with murder immediately. Not a single motherfucker in the media will point out the irony of the protesters demands. They are doing the exact thing they accuse the officer who shot Brown of doing- coming to hasty conclusion based on race and vague generalizations about people they don't understand. It's a type of racism they are practicing, but a politically acceptable form of racism.
Anyway, I am giving everyone a heads up here, this will not end well. The cop will not be charged with murder. Officials are probably hoping they can run out the clock and the protestors lose interest and the riots stop. I hope that is the case, but I don't have faith. If the rioting thugs start trying to burn down neighborhoods other than their own, there will be violence.
The saddest part of the episode is going to be that these people are destroying their own neighborhoods and driving away their own businesses. They businesses will not come back. In the end, they will be poorer and more isolated than ever.
Thanks, Swatter.
A damn shame. Let's hope wiser heads prevail.
Wiser heads won't prevail. They never do in these cases. The wiser heads tend to congregate on wargaming message boards to share their thoughts. :) Hotheads tend to congregate where the race pimps camp out, and the race pimps camp out where the cameras are, and the media continues to drink the kool-aid and ignore the obvious 1000-pound elephant/gorilla hybrid shitting in the corner of the room.
The thing that continues to annoy the hell out of me is nobody is asking "gee, had this punk NOT been robbing a store in the first place..."
I agree that the police officer involved is unlikely to be charged....locally. I do however fully expect the "Justice" Dept. to find something to make a show trial over similar to what happened in the Martin case when the local D.A. didn't try Zimmerman for murder.
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on August 19, 2014, 06:49:57 AM
Wiser heads won't prevail. They never do in these cases. The wiser heads tend to congregate on wargaming message boards to share their thoughts. :) Hotheads tend to congregate where the race pimps camp out, and the race pimps camp out where the cameras are, and the media continues to drink the kool-aid and ignore the obvious 1000-pound elephant/gorilla hybrid shitting in the corner of the room.
Good thing the NSA is spying on everyone so that stuff like this can't happen. By focusing on wargamers the odds of social unrest decreased exponentially! ::)
Quote from: LongBlade on August 19, 2014, 08:23:36 AM
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on August 19, 2014, 06:49:57 AM
Wiser heads won't prevail. They never do in these cases. The wiser heads tend to congregate on wargaming message boards to share their thoughts. :) Hotheads tend to congregate where the race pimps camp out, and the race pimps camp out where the cameras are, and the media continues to drink the kool-aid and ignore the obvious 1000-pound elephant/gorilla hybrid shitting in the corner of the room.
Good thing the NSA is spying on everyone so that stuff like this can't happen. By focusing on wargamers the odds of social unrest decreased exponentially! ::)
Ha! Well... (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.longislandfirearms.com%2Fforum%2Fpublic%2Fstyle_emoticons%2Fdefault%2Ftinfoil.gif&hash=8006df5dcc1cfd242d6cac65a0b43501bafcb918)
The real tragedy of all of this is that the cop's life is ruined because he did his job.
Great post above too, Swatter.
If the media really wanted to 'do journalism stuff' they would explore how these protesters can afford to be out all night burning their own shitty neighborhood down and still get up for work the next day. Oh wait...
To me, if you're at a peaceful protest, and the guy next to you throws a molotov cocktail, you tackle the son of a bitch and sit on him 'til the cops come and get him. You do that because he is ruining your message. You do that show you can demonstrate that you support the rule of law in every direction, not just those favorable to you. You do it because it's the right goddamn thing to do to take care of your community.
I have seen decent people protesting in the footage...it does seem like the lunatics are in the minority, just to dial back my above post a little. At the same time, those linatics are firebombing and firing at themselves and the cops. Not good.
The WaPo has an article that ID's three groups: legit protesters, militants, and looters.
The groups do not appear to be necessarily mutually exclusive.
QuoteFerguson police officials would not quantify how many looters have been arrested since the Brown shooting but presented a Washington Post reporter with a stack of roughly 50 arrest reports. While some of those arrested for stealing are from Ferguson, a large number have addresses listed in Illinois or in Texas.
"It's like looting tourism," an officer commented as he showed the reports. He asked not to be named. "It's like they are spending their gas money to come down here and steal."
source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/ferguson-protesters-the-peaceful-the-elders-the-looters-and-the-militants/2014/08/18/d6be1262-26f3-11e4-8593-da634b334390_story.html
Everyone can relax, Holder's been sent to Ferguson ::)
Methinks they doth protest too much.
QuoteFrom the White House, Obama is keeping a reserved tone by calling for calm on both sides, urging protesters to stay peaceful and police to show restraint. But at the Justice Department, Holder is committing what is being described as an "extraordinary" effort to investigate the local case.
"They're basically flooding the zone [with investigators]," Thomas Dupree, former deputy assistant attorney general under the George W. Bush administration, told Fox News. "It's an extraordinary level of commitment for an incident of this nature."
Dupree said the response shows this case is something Holder "is personally invested in."
source: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/08/19/holder-takes-on-ferguson-ag-flooding-zone-with-investigators-heads-to-missouri/
Because you can never have to much federal attention at the local level. ::)
Of course if it was a white kid shot by a black cop thete wouldnt be any federal attention at all.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on August 19, 2014, 02:17:22 PM
Of course if it was a white kid shot by a black cop thete wouldnt be any federal attention at all.
Or a grandmother walking her grandkids down the street.
Local media are reporting multiple eyewitnesses collaborate officer's version of the story.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on August 19, 2014, 02:04:02 PM
Because you can never have to much federal attention at the local level. ::)
Indeed. Any function at the local level can and should be duplicated at the federal level for double the cost.
Enough of the humor.
More news comes in to corroborate the officer's story:
QuoteThe Gateway Pundit can now confirm from two local St. Louis sources that police Officer Darren Wilson suffered facial fractures during his confrontation with deceased 18 year-old Michael Brown. Officer Wilson clearly feared for his life during the incident that led to the shooting death of Brown. This was after Michael Brown and his accomplice Dorian Johnson robbed a local Ferguson convenience store.
source: http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/08/breaking-report-po-darren-wilson-suffered-orbital-blowout-fracture-to-eye-socket-during-encounter-with-mike-brown/
We have this plastered all over our newscreens in the UK. Couple of things I don't understand -
1) If this guy - Brown - was unarmed, why was lethal force used against him? Assuming the absence of time to take non lethal preventative measures e.g. a tazer, could he not have been incapacitated rather than killed? Say shot in the legs?
2) Why did the authorities give out the name of the cop who shot this guy? He has not been charged with murder, or manslaughter (2nd degree homicide, or whatever). The other thing is the authorities have now made this cop, and his family a potential target for any enraged person who wants to take a pop at him. It seems nuts to me to make the disclosure at this stage in the interest of justice (towards the cop).
Any answers?
Well the answer to 1 is that most police forces, if not all, do not shot to incapacitate. If you fire your weapon it is to kill as that is the only sure way to stop an assailant, who might be hopped up on mind altering drugs. Plus shooting at someone's legs is much harder than shooting at the center of mass of the target.... unlike what you see in TV and movies.
Quote from: Boggit on August 19, 2014, 07:56:17 PM
We have this plastered all over our newscreens in the UK. Couple of things I don't understand -
1) If this guy - Brown - was unarmed, why was lethal force used against him?
Was watching the news tonight and they were discussing this. Apparently the law in Missouri allows police to use lethal force in very loose terms. Typically it's employed only when someone's life is in danger or thought to be in danger. A 6'4" 300 lb man who has just shattered your face turns around and starts to approach for more? It's going to be tough to argue that the officer didn't fear for his life.
That won't calm the crowds, but evidence is gradually accumulating to indicate the officer was in the right.
Quote2) Why did the authorities give out the name of the cop who shot this guy? He has not been charged with murder, or manslaughter (2nd degree homicide, or whatever). The other thing is the authorities have now made this cop, and his family a potential target for any enraged person who wants to take a pop at him. It seems nuts to me to make the disclosure at this stage in the interest of justice (towards the cop).
Any answers?
First, they ensured the officer was safe and wouldn't be harmed by angry protesters.
Why? It's pretty much a matter of public record. Withholding the name (it was felt) would perhaps calm the crowds - or at least not make it any worse.
Quote from: Barthheart on August 19, 2014, 08:21:01 PM
Well the answer to 1 is that most police forces, if not all, do not shot to incapacitate. If you fire your weapon it is to kill as that is the only sure way to stop an assailant, who might be hopped up on mind altering drugs. Plus shooting at someone's legs is much harder than shooting at the center of mass of the target.... unlike what you see in TV and movies.
Then surely it has to be the option of last resort, particularly if the assailant is unarmed? I appreciate the difficulty of accurate shooting with a handgun, but even so, should it not be attempted if the opportunity presents?
Intentional shooting to kill seems a disproportionate, almost irresponsible way of dealing with an unarmed person. If an police officer did that in the UK without acting proportionately to the danger he could find himself on a homicide charge (either murder, or manslaughter). Self defence is a defence to murder, but again it turns on the proportionality of force used.
I can understand it if an assailant has a lethal weapon, but in other cases it seems over the top. Does the concept of using reasonable force not apply in the US? If that is not the case, does it not encourage people at odds with the police (criminal or otherwise) to use lethal force as well to improve their own prospects of survival? If that is the case it's a bad spiral to be on.
care to guess how many cops it takes to take down someone whacky on PCP? or meth? or crack?
Quote from: LongBlade on August 19, 2014, 08:29:11 PM
Quote from: Boggit on August 19, 2014, 07:56:17 PM
We have this plastered all over our newscreens in the UK. Couple of things I don't understand -
1) If this guy - Brown - was unarmed, why was lethal force used against him?
Was watching the news tonight and they were discussing this. Apparently the law in Missouri allows police to use lethal force in very loose terms. Typically it's employed only when someone's life is in danger or thought to be in danger. A 6'4" 300 lb man who has just shattered your face turns around and starts to approach for more? It's going to be tough to argue that the officer didn't fear for his life.
That won't calm the crowds, but evidence is gradually accumulating to indicate the officer was in the right.
Quote2) Why did the authorities give out the name of the cop who shot this guy? He has not been charged with murder, or manslaughter (2nd degree homicide, or whatever). The other thing is the authorities have now made this cop, and his family a potential target for any enraged person who wants to take a pop at him. It seems nuts to me to make the disclosure at this stage in the interest of justice (towards the cop).
Any answers?
First, they ensured the officer was safe and wouldn't be harmed by angry protesters.
Why? It's pretty much a matter of public record. Withholding the name (it was felt) would perhaps calm the crowds - or at least not make it any worse.
On 1. I can see the point you make on self defence grounds. But you're right it's very loose. The officer might have risked getting badly beaten up, but not necessarily killed by an unarmed man. Being in fear for your life is a nebulous thing. Is the fear actually reasonable? The guy whilst large wasn't armed, which is a weaker argument. Would his night stick have been useless? Was he on his own without any back up to help? Did he have any hand to hand combat training? etc...
On 2. I can see the logic of convenience for the authorities, but unless this officer gets a new identity/relocation he and his family remain a target. Maybe not now, but maybe 6 months, a year or two later, when his protection is dropped for cost/risk reasons and an aggrieved family member comes looking for him with a gun?
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on August 19, 2014, 08:57:40 PM
care to guess how many cops it takes to take down someone whacky on PCP? or meth? or crack?
No idea. Do you HAVE to kill them, or can it be done in a non-lethal way? This is the question people ask when you see this stuff on TV. Was there an alternative? Maybe there wasn't any other way on the facts, but the question is still a valid one.
A cop that discharges their weapon is almost always taken off the street and put on desk duty while Internal Affairs investigates. If the weapon is discharged into a person, there's a whole ton more that needs to be looked into, especially if the person dies as a result. Unless the cop draws and indiscriminately starts blowing people away, they're not going to be arrested or charged with anything. Criminally, anyway. There might be options, depending on the state law, for him to be brought to trial via civil means. I'm not quite sure, it's been a while since I've studied this stuff - one of my degrees is in Criminal Justice, though fat lot of good it does me nowadays.
The cop that did this and his family WILL be looked after by the department. There's a certain code among most cops that they look after their brothers and sisters on the force, especially in a situation like this where he was in the right but public sentiment is not. I guarantee he'll have patrol officers going out of their way to 'check in' on his house and family every so often, whether on or off duty, until this dies down.
Plus the cop is likely packing off duty - I never knew a cop that didn't have a weapon on them at all times whether they were in uniform or out. It surprised me, actually. They told me to get a handgun that would be comfortable and compact as I'd probably have it on me all the time when in 'comfortable' clothes, or it would need to fit into the glove box of my car. I remember the field training officer very clearly saying, "That Dirty Harry hand cannon shit is for the movies."
Quote from: Boggit on August 19, 2014, 09:06:24 PM
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on August 19, 2014, 08:57:40 PM
care to guess how many cops it takes to take down someone whacky on PCP? or meth? or crack?
No idea. Do you HAVE to kill them, or can it be done in a non-lethal way? This is the question people ask when you see this stuff on TV. Was there an alternative? Maybe there wasn't any other way on the facts, but the question is still a valid one.
Cops are trained in these kinds of scenarios. Think about this: you have about two or three seconds to make a decision if a guy that's assaulted you and others, robbed a store, and is not complying with verbal commands, and is STILL coming at you, do you discharge your weapon or do you keep talking to him in the hopes he doesn't put his fist through your skull?
I'm not trying to be a smartass - I'm serious. Any kind of threat to you as a cop, or someone else, can be met with deadly force if the cop thinks the individual is capable and willing to do just that. They only have a heartbeat or two to make that decision. If the cop felt their life was in danger, and it almost certainly was from the sound of the evidence thus far, deadly force was indeed justified.
Guys Brown's size can kill with their bare hands easily, or have the strength to wrestle a cop to the ground and take their weapon away. That can't happen.
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on August 19, 2014, 09:17:47 PM
Guys Brown's size can kill with their bare hands easily, or have the strength to wrestle a cop to the ground and take their weapon away. That can't happen.
and thats why homie got shot dead.
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on August 19, 2014, 09:12:08 PM
A cop that discharges their weapon is almost always taken off the street and put on desk duty while Internal Affairs investigates. If the weapon is discharged into a person, there's a whole ton more that needs to be looked into, especially if the person dies as a result. Unless the cop draws and indiscriminately starts blowing people away, they're not going to be arrested or charged with anything. Criminally, anyway. There might be options, depending on the state law, for him to be brought to trial via civil means. I'm not quite sure, it's been a while since I've studied this stuff - one of my degrees is in Criminal Justice, though fat lot of good it does me nowadays.
The cop that did this and his family WILL be looked after by the department. There's a certain code among most cops that they look after their brothers and sisters on the force, especially in a situation like this where he was in the right but public sentiment is not. I guarantee he'll have patrol officers going out of their way to 'check in' on his house and family every so often, whether on or off duty, until this dies down.
Plus the cop is likely packing off duty - I never knew a cop that didn't have a weapon on them at all times whether they were in uniform or out. It surprised me, actually. They told me to get a handgun that would be comfortable and compact as I'd probably have it on me all the time when in 'comfortable' clothes, or it would need to fit into the glove box of my car. I remember the field training officer very clearly saying, "That Dirty Harry hand cannon shit is for the movies."
That's fair enough. I didn't like the thought of the authorities giving this guys name out, and then later dropping any protection as things died down, and then something bad happening.
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on August 19, 2014, 09:17:47 PM
Quote from: Boggit on August 19, 2014, 09:06:24 PM
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on August 19, 2014, 08:57:40 PM
care to guess how many cops it takes to take down someone whacky on PCP? or meth? or crack?
No idea. Do you HAVE to kill them, or can it be done in a non-lethal way? This is the question people ask when you see this stuff on TV. Was there an alternative? Maybe there wasn't any other way on the facts, but the question is still a valid one.
Cops are trained in these kinds of scenarios. Think about this: you have about two or three seconds to make a decision if a guy that's assaulted you and others, robbed a store, and is not complying with verbal commands, and is STILL coming at you, do you discharge your weapon or do you keep talking to him in the hopes he doesn't put his fist through your skull?
I'm not trying to be a smartass - I'm serious. Any kind of threat to you as a cop, or someone else, can be met with deadly force if the cop thinks the individual is capable and willing to do just that. They only have a heartbeat or two to make that decision. If the cop felt their life was in danger, and it almost certainly was from the sound of the evidence thus far, deadly force was indeed justified.
Guys Brown's size can kill with their bare hands easily, or have the strength to wrestle a cop to the ground and take their weapon away. That can't happen.
Don't worry. I take your comment on its merits, and you present a fair argument. I can understand the pressure to make the decision he did. Taking the fact pattern you give, were I in his place, I most probably would have done the same.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on August 19, 2014, 09:38:22 PM
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on August 19, 2014, 09:17:47 PM
Guys Brown's size can kill with their bare hands easily, or have the strength to wrestle a cop to the ground and take their weapon away. That can't happen.
and thats why homie got shot dead.
Indeed! Don't worry, I've got it now. O0
So this was a conversation on FB between a couple of my friends after the latest evidence came out in this case backing the actions of the officer
QuoteFriend #1 -I'm hoping that Officer Wilson supporters won't start rioting, burning, and looting in support of this brave hero.
Friend #2 - Nah, probably not going to happen.
Friend #3 - Amazing. Also. I'm ready for the pro officer rally. Haven't looted and burned in years
Friend #4 - Can we at least not burn and loot our own neighborhoods??
Friend #3 - Yeah--let's riot like we did after the O.J. verdict. Oh wait, we didn't. Never mind.
Friend #4 Not to mention more than a dozen witnesses confirm the officers story, but that doesnt matter. Eric (I get cops killed) Holder is going to be there tomorrow and will fix everything.
Friend #3 Can we start with Sharptins compound?
;D
Quote from: Boggit on August 19, 2014, 09:02:52 PM
Quote from: LongBlade on August 19, 2014, 08:29:11 PM
Quote from: Boggit on August 19, 2014, 07:56:17 PM
We have this plastered all over our newscreens in the UK. Couple of things I don't understand -
1) If this guy - Brown - was unarmed, why was lethal force used against him?
Was watching the news tonight and they were discussing this. Apparently the law in Missouri allows police to use lethal force in very loose terms. Typically it's employed only when someone's life is in danger or thought to be in danger. A 6'4" 300 lb man who has just shattered your face turns around and starts to approach for more? It's going to be tough to argue that the officer didn't fear for his life.
That won't calm the crowds, but evidence is gradually accumulating to indicate the officer was in the right.
Quote2) Why did the authorities give out the name of the cop who shot this guy? He has not been charged with murder, or manslaughter (2nd degree homicide, or whatever). The other thing is the authorities have now made this cop, and his family a potential target for any enraged person who wants to take a pop at him. It seems nuts to me to make the disclosure at this stage in the interest of justice (towards the cop).
Any answers?
First, they ensured the officer was safe and wouldn't be harmed by angry protesters.
Why? It's pretty much a matter of public record. Withholding the name (it was felt) would perhaps calm the crowds - or at least not make it any worse.
On 1. I can see the point you make on self defence grounds. But you're right it's very loose. The officer might have risked getting badly beaten up, but not necessarily killed by an unarmed man. Being in fear for your life is a nebulous thing. Is the fear actually reasonable? The guy whilst large wasn't armed, which is a weaker argument. Would his night stick have been useless? Was he on his own without any back up to help? Did he have any hand to hand combat training? etc...
On 2. I can see the logic of convenience for the authorities, but unless this officer gets a new identity/relocation he and his family remain a target. Maybe not now, but maybe 6 months, a year or two later, when his protection is dropped for cost/risk reasons and an aggrieved family member comes looking for him with a gun?
Here is what is known:
-The thug robbed a market minutes before the shooting.
-The officer stopped the thug (Brown) initially for walking in the middle of a busy street. The officer claims he quickly figured out Brown was a suspect in the robbery.
-The officer made contact with Brown and a physical altercation occurred in which there was a struggle for the officer's weapon and a shot was fired within the police vehicle.
-The officer sustained injury to his face, perhaps a shattered eye socket.
-Brown then attempted to escape, officer pursued (standard procedure).
-This is where accounts differ. Some say Brown surrendered, some say he charged. The officer fired several rounds and killed Brown.
If Brown charged, lethal force was justified. Once there was a struggle for the weapon, any further aggressive acts would warrant deadly force.
Unless there is some excellent eyewitness testimony that clearly shows Brown was surrendering, this isn't a tough call. If there wasn't an earlier struggle for the officer's firearm, then the use of deadly force becomes much more murky.
Quote from: Boggit on August 19, 2014, 09:02:52 PM
On 1. I can see the point you make on self defence grounds. But you're right it's very loose.
Actually, it's even looser. According to the report, MO law allows them to use it simply in "accomplishing their duties" or something to that effect.
Quote from: LongBlade on August 20, 2014, 07:21:35 AM
Quote from: Boggit on August 19, 2014, 09:02:52 PM
On 1. I can see the point you make on self defence grounds. But you're right it's very loose.
Actually, it's even looser. According to the report, MO law allows them to use it simply in "accomplishing their duties" or something to that effect.
I don't believe that's true. The standard is that the officer must feel that he or someone else is in danger of severe harm. The use of deadly force laws in Missouri are pretty restrictive for police and citizens. Even as a citizen if someone is breaking into your house, you cannot use deadly force unless your life is directly threatened. In Missouri, you will be prosecuted for shooting first and asking questions later.
What report are you referring to?
Quote from: Swatter on August 20, 2014, 10:16:29 AM
Quote from: LongBlade on August 20, 2014, 07:21:35 AM
Quote from: Boggit on August 19, 2014, 09:02:52 PM
On 1. I can see the point you make on self defence grounds. But you're right it's very loose.
Actually, it's even looser. According to the report, MO law allows them to use it simply in "accomplishing their duties" or something to that effect.
I don't believe that's true. The standard is that the officer must feel that he or someone else is in danger of severe harm. The use of deadly force laws in Missouri are pretty restrictive for police and citizens. Even as a citizen if someone is breaking into your house, you cannot use deadly force unless your life is directly threatened. In Missouri, you will be prosecuted for shooting first and asking questions later.
What report are you referring to?
Did a quick search online. Found this:
QuoteLaw enforcement officer's use of force in making an arrest.
563.046. 1. A law enforcement officer need not retreat or desist from efforts to effect the arrest, or from efforts to prevent the escape from custody, of a person he reasonably believes to have committed an offense because of resistance or threatened resistance of the arrestee. In addition to the use of physical force authorized under other sections of this chapter, he is, subject to the provisions of subsections 2 and 3, justified in the use of such physical force as he reasonably believes is immediately necessary to effect the arrest or to prevent the escape from custody.
2. The use of any physical force in making an arrest is not justified under this section unless the arrest is lawful or the law enforcement officer reasonably believes the arrest is lawful.
3. A law enforcement officer in effecting an arrest or in preventing an escape from custody is justified in using deadly force only
(1) When such is authorized under other sections of this chapter; or
(2) When he reasonably believes that such use of deadly force is immediately necessary to effect the arrest and also reasonably believes that the person to be arrested
(a) Has committed or attempted to commit a felony; or
(b) Is attempting to escape by use of a deadly weapon; or
(c) May otherwise endanger life or inflict serious physical injury unless arrested without delay.
4. The defendant shall have the burden of injecting the issue of justification under this section.
(L. 1977 S.B. 60)
Effective 1-1-79
source: http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/chapters/chap563.htm
I'm no lawyer, but it looks like so long as the officer believes the person being arrested may have committed a felony, deadly force is allowed (though obviously not preferred).
To clarify, "deadly force" means force that has the potential to kill someone, not that it actually would. A cop can shoot someone in the shoulder, or leg, or abdomen, and they might not die. It's still considered 'deadly force.' The provision in the law that LB posted indicates to a lay person that using deadly force to arrest someone might seem like a waste of time...if they die, they're not really arrestable, are they? That's because shooting someone and putting them on the ground means they're likely arrestable at that point.
I'm certain there has to be further provisions that state once the suspect is no longer a threat, the officer cannot continue to use deadly force. In other words, if they shoot a suspect in the leg and they go down, drop their weapon, and scream that they surrender, the cop can't keep shooting at them. I could be wrong, but I know that's the case in Texas. At least, it was.
Most cops are taught to shoot to stop, not kill, perpetrators. There's a world of difference in the two terms. 'Stop' indicates you shoot them, and if they stop what they're doing, you stop shooting them. If they keep doing it, or continue to be a threat, you shoot them again. And again. Until they stop. If they die, well, that's the breaks. They should not have been caught in a criminal act, and since they were, they should not have escalated it to the point where the officer had to draw their weapon in the first place. If the cop has to shoot them six times to stop them, then that's it. If a seventh bullet is unnecessary, the cop WILL get raked over the investigative coals if they fire a seventh time and hit them.
*Edit: Again I am fairly certain of this. It's been a while but I think I'm remembering this stuff correctly.
Personally, I think the issue goes back to Brown breaking the officer's eye socket (or whatever the technical term is).
Someone capable of hitting you that hard, and an officer of the law to boot, is a clear danger. For him to turn around an appear to be intent on dealing more damage...the use of force would seem justified.
We still need to get all the facts to really know what happened before we can say for sure.
Quote from: LongBlade on August 20, 2014, 12:10:51 PM
the officer's eye socket (or whatever the technical term is).
Orbit. :)
And yes, we certainly do need more info, but the news needs to get the cameras out of the idiots' faces and the reporters need to start gathering actual facts.
Hahahahahahaha, I almost typed that without smirking.
+1 To both Longblade and Banzai_Cat :)
Most of my earlier questions were based on broad principle. BUT -
We simply haven't had the facts properly reported on TV, as they have been given here. We get the "officer shoots dead unarmed black man" with all the connotations implied, but not once have I heard - in multiple news reports - that the officer's eye socket was broken by Brown. In that context the officer was clearly acting in self-defence in the face of potentially deadly force. So, I have to ask, why hasn't the fact pattern been made more public, or is the media failing and creating hysteria on the street with half truths?
More info coming in to support the officer's claim. Two news organizations.
QuoteDarren Wilson, the Ferguson, Mo., police officer whose fatal shooting of Michael Brown touched off more than a week of demonstrations, suffered severe facial injuries, including an orbital (eye socket) fracture, and was nearly beaten unconscious by Brown moments before firing his gun, a source close to the department's top brass told FoxNews.com.
"The Assistant (Police) Chief took him to the hospital, his face all swollen on one side," said the insider. "He was beaten very severely."
QuoteThe source claims that there is "solid proof" that there was a struggle between Brown and Wilson for the policeman's firearm, resulting in the gun going off – although it still remains unclear at this stage who pulled the trigger. Brown started to walk away according to the account, prompting Wilson to draw his gun and order him to freeze. Brown, the source said, raised his hands in the air, and turned around saying, "What, you're going to shoot me?"
At that point, the source told FoxNews.com, the 6 foot, 4 inch, 292-pound Brown charged Wilson, prompting the officer to fire at least six shots at him, including the fatal bullet that penetrated the top of Brown's skull, according to an independent autopsy conducted at the request of Brown's family.
source: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/08/20/missouri-cop-was-badly-beaten-before-shooting-michael-brown-says-source/
QuoteThe Ferguson police officer who shot and killed an unarmed teenager suffered "a serious facial injury" in the altercation before firing the fatal shots, according to a source close to the officer who spoke to ABC News today.
source: http://abcnews.go.com/US/ferguson-shooting-grand-jury-decide-october-charge-cop/story?id=25047905
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.craigslist.org%2F00X0X_jacYeQB756Y_600x450.jpg&hash=04f4d9f6483a36fa259c2fbdccbdd4cdfeb7efd5)
^HAHAHA
<homer>
funny because it's true.
<homer>
As too often tragically happens, the popular conscious seems to get something wrong and something right, but not at the same time.
The second St. Louis shooting victim, Kajieme Powell, has largely gone unreported, eclipsed by Michael Brown's shooting.
While the crowds rage against the shooting of Brown, which increasingly appears to be justified, Powell's shooting may not be.
So the crowd, while expressing outrage, appears to have selected the wrong victim to support.
QuoteSt. Louis Police Chief Sam Dotson said Tuesday that both of the officers opened fire on Powell when he came within a three or four feet of them holding a knife "in an overhand grip."
But the newly released cell phone footage undermines the statement, showing Powell approaching the cops, but not coming as close as was reported, with his hands at his side. The officers began shooting within 15 seconds of their arrival, hitting Powell with a barrage of bullets.
Video of the shooting is at the link:
source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/20/kajieme-powell-shooting_n_5696546.html
Something to keep an eye on...
Quote from: LongBlade on August 20, 2014, 10:12:52 PM
As too often tragically happens, the popular conscious seems to get something wrong and something right, but not at the same time.
The second St. Louis shooting victim, Kajieme Powell, has largely gone unreported, eclipsed by Michael Brown's shooting.
While the crowds rage against the shooting of Brown, which increasingly appears to be justified, Powell's shooting may not be.
So the crowd, while expressing outrage, appears to have selected the wrong victim to support.
QuoteSt. Louis Police Chief Sam Dotson said Tuesday that both of the officers opened fire on Powell when he came within a three or four feet of them holding a knife "in an overhand grip."
But the newly released cell phone footage undermines the statement, showing Powell approaching the cops, but not coming as close as was reported, with his hands at his side. The officers began shooting within 15 seconds of their arrival, hitting Powell with a barrage of bullets.
Video of the shooting is at the link:
source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/20/kajieme-powell-shooting_n_5696546.html
Something to keep an eye on...
Unjustified? The Huffington Post isn't a place I would look for accurate information. Cleary the author's of that piece have an agenda. The guy was imbalanced, according to independent witnesses, was acting menacingly, and armed with a knife. Deadly force is justified at 25 feet for a suspect armed with a knife, the officers obviously waited until the suspect was much closer until firing.
For people who have no idea how police work is conducted, they will always believe what they want regardless of facts. In the case, the ample evidence (whether the initial reports were 100% correct or not) of justification. This is an easy one.
I don't care what Don Lemon thinks. He is supposed to be an anchor and he has been acting like a commentator, a highly opinionated commentator at that.
Quote from: Boggit on August 20, 2014, 04:49:35 PM
So, I have to ask, why hasn't the fact pattern been made more public, or is the media failing and creating hysteria on the street with half truths?
The media in this country are terrified to report race related issues, especially if the issues pertain to black people and violence. In St. Louis, the local media are completely mortified. The local channels report everything the protesters claim, unfiltered and unchallenged. It is simply out of fear. Fear of being called racists, fear of further inflaming the mob.
Protesters get unfettered access to television to call for the officer to be charged with murder, for the DA to be removed from the case, and to conflate every other issue in the community with the Brown shooting. Whatever opinion a protester has, that's a valid opinion and worthy to be televised unfiltered. No opposing points of view. The anchors often echo the calls for "justice". Of course, justice in this context is charging Brown with murder, not even attempting to ascertain what the facts even are. I have yet to see a local anchor (after seeing hours and hours of coverage) even say the officer is innocent until proven guilty. They simply let the protesters imply the officer is a murderer without challenge dozens of times a day.
For people who don't live here, its par for the course on race issues around here. Furgeson and the surrounding area are high crime, high murder rate areas. All of that context magically disappears and the shooting of Mike Brown apparently occurred within a vacuum. All of the normal black on black murders are simply not news.
Quote from: Swatter on August 20, 2014, 10:47:26 PM
Unjustified? The Huffington Post isn't a place I would look for accurate information. Cleary the author's of that piece have an agenda. The guy was imbalanced, according to independent witnesses, was acting menacingly, and armed with a knife. Deadly force is justified at 25 feet for a suspect armed with a knife, the officers obviously waited until the suspect was much closer until firing.
For people who have no idea how police work is conducted, they will always believe what they want regardless of facts. In the case, the ample evidence (whether the initial reports were 100% correct or not) of justification. This is an easy one.
I don't care what Don Lemon thinks. He is supposed to be an anchor and he has been acting like a commentator, a highly opinionated commentator at that.
I believe I qualified each of my observations.
The video has not been forensically analyzed and, for better or worse, I do not have said tools to do so myself.
The suspect does appear to charge the officer, but I did not see an upraised arm appearing to attack with a knife. Perhaps forensic analysis will show otherwise, but from what I can see here, the video does not match the account given.
Should the man have charged?
Absolutely not.
Should deadly force have been used? I'm glad I'm not a civilian in that position because I'd be somewhat worried. Maybe right, maybe wrong. "Maybe" is thin ice.
So Holder goes to St Louis yesterday and instead of helping to make sure the investigation is done with any bias, he states he understands why
Quotemany black Americans do not trust police, recalling how he was repeatedly stopped by officers who seemed to target him because of his race
At the same time, you have those that have already convicted Wilson of murder calling for the district attorney to step down because his father was a police officer that we killed by someone who is black.
Wonder why some many people seem want to skip the investigation and the evidence go straight to the lynching.
For a police force that badly needs some good press these kind of actions are not going to help their case any....
http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/ctv-s-tom-walters-among-journalists-arrested-in-ferguson-1.1968102
QuoteCTV's Los Angeles Bureau Chief Tom Walters was among several journalists arrested Tuesday night in Ferguson, Missouri.
Walters was detained after trying to ask a question of Capt. Ron Johnson of the Missouri Highway Patrol. Walters's arrest was captured on video camera by CTV News cameraman Liam Hyland.
The veteran journalist was released Wednesday morning without being charged.
Read more: http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/ctv-s-tom-walters-among-journalists-arrested-in-ferguson-1.1968102#ixzz3B1pQaCLW
Quote from: Barthheart on August 21, 2014, 07:22:20 AM
For a police force that badly needs some good press these kind of actions are not going to help their case any....
http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/ctv-s-tom-walters-among-journalists-arrested-in-ferguson-1.1968102
QuoteCTV's Los Angeles Bureau Chief Tom Walters was among several journalists arrested Tuesday night in Ferguson, Missouri.
Walters was detained after trying to ask a question of Capt. Ron Johnson of the Missouri Highway Patrol. Walters's arrest was captured on video camera by CTV News cameraman Liam Hyland.
The veteran journalist was released Wednesday morning without being charged.
Read more: http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/ctv-s-tom-walters-among-journalists-arrested-in-ferguson-1.1968102#ixzz3B1pQaCLW
Whoever said "there's no such thing as bad press" never worked this case.
Quote from: LongBlade on August 21, 2014, 11:07:33 AM
Quote from: Barthheart on August 21, 2014, 07:22:20 AM
For a police force that badly needs some good press these kind of actions are not going to help their case any....
http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/ctv-s-tom-walters-among-journalists-arrested-in-ferguson-1.1968102
QuoteCTV's Los Angeles Bureau Chief Tom Walters was among several journalists arrested Tuesday night in Ferguson, Missouri.
Walters was detained after trying to ask a question of Capt. Ron Johnson of the Missouri Highway Patrol. Walters's arrest was captured on video camera by CTV News cameraman Liam Hyland.
The veteran journalist was released Wednesday morning without being charged.
Read more: http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/ctv-s-tom-walters-among-journalists-arrested-in-ferguson-1.1968102#ixzz3B1pQaCLW
Whoever said "there's no such thing as bad press" never worked this case.
Pretty much. This has pretty much been a gong show from the start. It's one giant facepalm moment that simply won't stop.
"It started out as a goat-fuck, and we just keep adding more goats"
-- genius National Guard captain who shall remain nameless
Wait.... is Gus a goat now? ???
No. He does have the bling that pisses off the black kids though.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.comicvine.com%2Fuploads%2Fscale_super%2F4%2F49487%2F1166069-buck_rogers_30_1102984129.jpg&hash=fb0cf985514e491565dc5fbf2795f5ce47cfce54)
Quote from: Arctic Blast on August 21, 2014, 02:06:46 PM
Whoever said "there's no such thing as bad press" never worked this case.
Pretty much. This has pretty much been a gong show from the start. It's one giant facepalm moment that simply won't stop.
[/quote]
a few days ago we had some "Furgeson arrests footage" on our primtime news that can easy top that:
a 90 year old Holocaust survivor granny flexicuffed behind her back slowly shuffling through a room that looked like a gymnasium and with two female police officers one head taler one of each side holding her elbows ...well that kind of overcautious isnt it? and they were stupid enuf to get that filmed
There may be a problem with one of the medical examiners hired by the Brown family.
Dr. Baden is great, but his partner in the autopsy has apparently had some problems...
Quote"He is doing forensic autopsies which may send someone to prison, and he is not a physician, much less a forensic pathologist," she told TheDC, adding that forensic pathologists and medical examines throughout the U.S. "are shocked by this man and how bold he is to do what he does."
"No one stops him," she said.
Case said that Baden, 80, "is an excellent forensic pathologist." At a press conference Monday, Baden said the same thing about her.
But Case claims that Baden was unaware of what she called Parcells' "baggage."
"Dr. Baden did not know about Parcells' baggage or he would not have become associated with him," Case told TheDC. "His association with Parcells is very unfortunate."
Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2014/08/21/st-louis-medical-examiner-slams-brown-family-hire/
These Gus jokes just have to end shortly. These kinds of jokes are beneath us. His memory might be short-term, but that doesn't mean we can't all be bigger than this.
and here I thought you eschewed low brow humor in favor of taking the high road
Its hard to believe you'd stoop so low as to hit below the belt like this
Stand tall in the midst of all these little jokes, Gus...well you know what I mean.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on August 21, 2014, 05:17:15 PM
and here I thought you eschewed low brow humor in favor of taking the high road
Its hard to believe you'd stoop so low as to hit below the belt like this
Such are the insults of small minds.
Eat my balls, ball eaters.
I LOVE wasabi peas!
this isnt.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/t1.0-9/10534529_833148676696894_169452308956173536_n.jpg)
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on August 21, 2014, 08:47:36 PM
this isnt.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/t1.0-9/10534529_833148676696894_169452308956173536_n.jpg)
An excellent place to start.
^Isn't that the guy from Die Hard?
Yes, Mr. , or Officer, Twinkie.
Wasn't he also the neighbor's dad in whatever show it was with Urkle?
yes thats the guy Urkle unnerved to the max every episode, ;) i think his name was Carl ?
btw interesting case of 'reverse racism' in the media seen from the distance
There was not one single white person in that sitcom show IIRC , while in 'white' sitcoms there is mostly a black person showing up regularly here and there, just like in real live
(for example: Married with Children had that friend and shoeshop college of Al Bundy, and Melcom in the Middle has Malcolm's best friend that nerd-kid in the wheelchair, ...)
Why are their sitcoms that are exclusively with black actors? (I also remember a sitcom about family-life with a big bald dad and cute little daughters)
"You better smell what you shovelin'" was his big Die Hard line, later sampled by 90s wonderband Neds Atomic Dustbin. As far as black guys from Die Hard, I always preferred Argyle.
There is a scene in the comedy Scary Movie at 11:30 into the movie. :2funny: You might want to start it at 11:00.
It features Argyle or Twinkie?
Peace has been reestablished. But I don't think a decision which exonerates the officer will go down well.
Quote from: LongBlade on August 23, 2014, 11:07:13 AM
Peace has been reestablished. But I don't think a decision which exonerates the officer will go down well.
Why not - if the "actual" facts, rather than the "selected" ones are publicised? If it doesn't go down better then, it's all down to the prejudice/bias of the mob. :( :knuppel2:
Speaking of bias
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/25/us/darren-wilsons-unremarkable-past-offers-few-clues-into-ferguson-shooting.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&version=HpHeadline&module=photo-spot-region®ion=photo-spot&WT.nav=photo-spot
Quote from: mirth on August 25, 2014, 01:36:34 PM
Speaking of bias
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/25/us/darren-wilsons-unremarkable-past-offers-few-clues-into-ferguson-shooting.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&version=HpHeadline&module=photo-spot-region®ion=photo-spot&WT.nav=photo-spot
:buck2:
Quote from: mirth on August 25, 2014, 01:36:34 PM
Speaking of bias
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/25/us/darren-wilsons-unremarkable-past-offers-few-clues-into-ferguson-shooting.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&version=HpHeadline&module=photo-spot-region®ion=photo-spot&WT.nav=photo-spot
Sad that they extrapolate the "likely" facts from anecdotal reports from a few people who allegedly knew the officer. Surely, it is better to look at the facts in the instant case rather than speculate on the impressions of 30 years ago or so?
Quote from: Boggit on August 25, 2014, 02:53:45 PM
Quote from: mirth on August 25, 2014, 01:36:34 PM
Speaking of bias
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/25/us/darren-wilsons-unremarkable-past-offers-few-clues-into-ferguson-shooting.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&version=HpHeadline&module=photo-spot-region®ion=photo-spot&WT.nav=photo-spot (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/25/us/darren-wilsons-unremarkable-past-offers-few-clues-into-ferguson-shooting.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&version=HpHeadline&module=photo-spot-region®ion=photo-spot&WT.nav=photo-spot)
Sad that they extrapolate the "likely" facts from anecdotal reports from a few people who allegedly knew the officer. Surely, it is better to look at the facts in the instant case rather than speculate on the impressions of 30 years ago or so?
It's such a crap piece. Focusing on his "broken" childhood. Quoting the neighbors who hadn't seen him for years:
Quote"It's a terrible thing that has happened now, but he did have a troubled childhood," Ms. Finney said in an interview
QuoteYears later, Ms. Finney said she was stunned when she saw her former neighbor appear outside the old house in a police uniform. "My husband and I thought, 'How did he get to be a police officer?' "
Typical media setup BS. Why bother with the facts of the matter at hand, when it can be implied and insinuated that he was a bad cop because of his upbringing.
Quote from: mirth on August 25, 2014, 03:05:53 PM
Quote from: Boggit on August 25, 2014, 02:53:45 PM
Quote from: mirth on August 25, 2014, 01:36:34 PM
Speaking of bias
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/25/us/darren-wilsons-unremarkable-past-offers-few-clues-into-ferguson-shooting.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&version=HpHeadline&module=photo-spot-region®ion=photo-spot&WT.nav=photo-spot (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/25/us/darren-wilsons-unremarkable-past-offers-few-clues-into-ferguson-shooting.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&version=HpHeadline&module=photo-spot-region®ion=photo-spot&WT.nav=photo-spot)
Sad that they extrapolate the "likely" facts from anecdotal reports from a few people who allegedly knew the officer. Surely, it is better to look at the facts in the instant case rather than speculate on the impressions of 30 years ago or so?
It's such a crap piece. Focusing on his "broken" childhood. Quoting the neighbors who hadn't seen him for years:
Quote"It's a terrible thing that has happened now, but he did have a troubled childhood," Ms. Finney said in an interview
QuoteYears later, Ms. Finney said she was stunned when she saw her former neighbor appear outside the old house in a police uniform. "My husband and I thought, 'How did he get to be a police officer?' "
Typical media setup BS. Why bother with the facts of the matter at hand, when it can be implied and insinuated that he was a bad cop because of his upbringing.
I bet if he was a different race the story would be "look how he overcame a bad childhood and adversity and came out not only a law abiding citizen but an officer of the law and is making a difference in his own neighborhood." ::)
^HA, touche.
If he were a different race, this never would have been a story in the first place.
I see the Justice Department is now investigating the Ferguson police department. I'm guessing they know that the police office was justified for his actions, and since they cannot hang him on this, their going to condemn the whole department.
Quote from: OJsDad on September 05, 2014, 12:30:15 PM
I see the Justice Department is now investigating the Ferguson police department. I'm guessing they know that the police office was justified for his actions, and since they cannot hang him on this, their going to condemn the whole department.
Thus the reason why I've referred to the "Justice Department" in quotation marks all throughout Holder's reign. It's become a political tool that Nixon would have envied.
Quote from: Steelgrave on September 05, 2014, 01:01:33 PM
Quote from: OJsDad on September 05, 2014, 12:30:15 PM
I see the Justice Department is now investigating the Ferguson police department. I'm guessing they know that the police office was justified for his actions, and since they cannot hang him on this, their going to condemn the whole department.
Thus the reason why I've referred to the "Justice Department" in quotation marks all throughout Holder's reign. It's become a political tool that Nixon would have envied.
Can anyone name a department that has not been made into a political tool by this president?
The Post Office?
But let's not act like both of the major parties don't do it by choosing what to enforce or not. When it's your party, there's a perfectly justifiable reason; when it's the other guy, it's clearly corruption in action. Sometimes, your guys are corrupt; sometimes, they are justified.
Not saying this is either one, just that we should avoid generalities when there's plenty of bad behavior in all directions.
No, I'm pretty sure that after six years in office, we are not dealing in generalities here. The "Justice Department", like the IRS, has clearly shown a particular political bent from day one, when memos defining very stark racial objectives were leaked. You're certainly right to point out that both sides have corrupt individuals among their ranks, and I don't trust either party as far as I could throw their wallets, but anyone who can't see the obvious political and racial overtones to damn near everything this administration has done domestically is simply making excuses. Hell, I can find good things to say about both Clintons, but a generation from now (once the fawning admirers in the press and academia have passed on) Obama will be regarded among the Franklin Pierces and Jimmy Carter's of the White House.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on September 05, 2014, 01:23:16 PM
The Post Office?
But let's not act like both of the major parties don't do it by choosing what to enforce or not. When it's your party, there's a perfectly justifiable reason; when it's the other guy, it's clearly corruption in action. Sometimes, your guys are corrupt; sometimes, they are justified.
Not saying this is either one, just that we should avoid generalities when there's plenty of bad behavior in all directions.
The Post Office is not a good example since it has been a political tool of all parties since its inception.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on September 05, 2014, 01:23:16 PM
The Post Office?
But let's not act like both of the major parties don't do it by choosing what to enforce or not. When it's your party, there's a perfectly justifiable reason; when it's the other guy, it's clearly corruption in action. Sometimes, your guys are corrupt; sometimes, they are justified.
Not saying this is either one, just that we should avoid generalities when there's plenty of bad behavior in all directions.
Brant is right on this one. The office of AG is a political lightning rod. Their job is to sometimes take the heat off the prez.
What's different here is the number, breadth, and depth of scandals. There are so many, each worse than the others, and little is being done about any of them beyond lip service.
Personally, I find the current admin a classic case of theater of the absurd. As such, it's appropriate to call for multiple investigations of investigations of investigations. As the old Latin saying goes: Who will watch those who watch the ones watching the other ones watching the watchers?
Or something like that.
Quote from: LongBlade on September 05, 2014, 01:56:36 PMWho will watch those who watch the ones watching the other ones watching the watchers?
c'mon now - if it involves watching a watch, you know who to call...
right, Toonces?
(https://img0.etsystatic.com/022/1/7440684/il_570xN.536382738_icir.jpg)
its Toonces and Ferguson all rolled into one:
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.hiphopwired.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F12%2Fflavor-flav-300x300-2009-01-26.jpg&hash=c32830d8b4a2a2abef5d69ee98a6086724043fd3)
Bring the noise!
A new video has surfaced: http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/11/us/ferguson-michael-brown-shooting-witnesses/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
Quote from: LongBlade on September 12, 2014, 10:15:28 AM
A new video has surfaced: http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/11/us/ferguson-michael-brown-shooting-witnesses/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
I saw that and am extremely disturbed by the implications. It's one thing for his friends or family to claim he was shot repeatedly while surrendering, but these guys were true bystanders and were clearly upset by what they saw going down. Disturbing....
Quote from: Steelgrave on September 12, 2014, 06:40:42 PM
Quote from: LongBlade on September 12, 2014, 10:15:28 AM
A new video has surfaced: http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/11/us/ferguson-michael-brown-shooting-witnesses/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
I saw that and am extremely disturbed by the implications. It's one thing for his friends or family to claim he was shot repeatedly while surrendering, but these guys were true bystanders and were clearly upset by what they saw going down. Disturbing....
That other vid I posted of the shooting - the cops had tasers, vests, and more. There were options other than firing a dozen times.
I will be curious to see how these investigations turn out.
Nothing can justify the rioting.
...on your mark, get set, go! :-\
wait wait wait....
are we supposed to go after the findings are read or after the moment of silence?
Just be silent while you start.
quote from a friend on Facebook
QuoteStill looking pretty calm in ferguson, despite the lack of an indictment, I would submit that those cops who are are standing out there must have a tough time hearing - considering the size of their brass balls and how they are clanking together. True bravery lads.
I like the CNN reporter who notes that "obviously there is the smell of marijuana in the air".
It is somewhat comforting to know that there are apparently people in the crowd intent on self-policing the crowd and keeping the protests from getting out of hand.
It also appears that there's more journalists than protesters in many of those visuals.
they heard Gus got an alert.
There is some violence starting now.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on November 24, 2014, 10:13:57 PM
It also appears that there's more journalists than protesters in many of those visuals.
Pretty much guaranteeing riots.
Quote from: mirth on November 24, 2014, 10:24:20 PM
Quote from: bayonetbrant on November 24, 2014, 10:13:57 PM
It also appears that there's more journalists than protesters in many of those visuals.
Pretty much guaranteeing riots.
Much to the presses great joy. :P
What a crock of BS this whole thing is.
Aaaannnndddd the riots are underway. Already the Jets are behind by two touchdowns. This may be as bad as the riots in Utah after that black cop shot the unarmed white kid.
Oh, wait.......
I just wish someone had gotten live video of the guys smashing store windows with bricks
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/984254_10105231118733045_1632896239108927335_n.jpg?oh=696bf7bcd528cdae107cb1b9403ceed7&oe=54D30419&__gda__=1423661427_3eab7f6ab5103d4b82d29f7255c65903)
they got video of the looting
It's 12:24am local St. Louis time and the burnings continue. It is well planned ( the burnings) as small groups of people with Molotov cocktails infiltrate through the crowds and police lines to burn random businesses. I would doubt these are just random thugs starting most of these fires. The people of Ferguson are going to wake up tomorrow poorer and with less services than they did before sundown. Police response has been mild to this moment. I would say that a vast majority of the people who are "protesting" in the area are agitated but mostly peaceful. More protestors in another area blocked a major interstate, but they made their point and left peacefully enough (nobody was ripped out of their car and beaten).
Folks, this is just the beginning. The outside groups have had months to plan and stock up. I suspect there will be widespread interstate blockage tomorrow, which could be the thing that really sparks tensions between protestors and police. Unfortunately, my wife works downtown in an area that is highly likely to be affected by interstate blockage. I am trying to encourage her not to go to work, but she works at a hospital and people need her.
I am hoping for the best, but I fully expect this to be a media spectacle for days to come.
best of luck man.
Stay safe.
I heard on the radio this morning of a reporter, with something burning behind them and people (predictably) acting like idiots in front of the camera, when someone yelled "FUCK CNN!" Of course, the reporter apologized to the audience for the potty language. Never mind that the city is burning in the background, that people are behaving worse than animals which is made worse by their cameras...God forbid we have bad language on TV! Gasp! ::)
The media really needs a massive bitchslap upside their collective heads.
These St. Louis Riots (http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/11/25/us-usa-missouri-shooting-idUSKCN0J80PR20141125) are reminiscent of the Watts Riot (http://crdl.usg.edu/events/watts_riots/?Welcome). Some people will use anything as an excuse to cover up their misbehavior.
Quote from: Swatter on November 25, 2014, 01:42:20 AM
The people of Ferguson are going to wake up tomorrow poorer and with less services than they did before sundown.
This.
What a shame.
Swatter, I hope you and your wife are and remain safe.
I hope you stay safe as well, Swatter. Watch your six.
I think Ferguson as a whole could do with a little Eric Idle this morning:
The evidence heard by the Grand Jury has been publically released. It can be found at:
http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2014/11/us/ferguson-grand-jury-docs/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
This is highly unusual in the USA. Grand Jury evidence is usually secret since it does not follow the same rule of evidence as a court proceeding. For example, the defense does not get to supply its own evidence, cross examine witnesses, etc.....
As a result, you have a much more public disclosure of essential facts than you normally do.
Quote from: airboy on November 25, 2014, 10:34:35 AM
The evidence heard by the Grand Jury has been publically released. It can be found at:
http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2014/11/us/ferguson-grand-jury-docs/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
This is highly unusual in the USA. Grand Jury evidence is usually secret since it does not follow the same rule of evidence as a court proceeding. For example, the defense does not get to supply its own evidence, cross examine witnesses, etc.....
As a result, you have a much more public disclosure of essential facts than you normally do.
I wish it mattered, but I don't think it will.
The real shame here is that a good officer is now going to resign over this whole mess. He did nothing wrong yet it seems like he's being punished.
A guy dedicates himself to the service of the community and is driven from it for his good works.
It's a shame no one is talking about that.
According to the Grand Jury testimony, this was the only instance in Officer Wilson's career where he shot someone.
Quote from: airboy on November 25, 2014, 11:13:40 AM
According to the Grand Jury testimony, this was the only instance in Officer Wilson's career where he shot someone.
Yup. Heard that.
28 years old and his career is over. :(
Sounds like the Brown family is now questioning the way the Prosecutor ran the Grand Jury.
Quote from: OJsDad on November 25, 2014, 12:34:29 PMSounds like the Brown family is now questioning the way the Prosecutor ran the Grand Jury.
They're not the only ones. I know a
lot of people on both sides of the argument that are wondering why he ran it the way he did.
The District Attorney (a Democrat) gave the Grand Jury the entire laundry list of potential crimes to charge Officer Wilson with. So the Grand Jury had all of the options on the table.
The DA also provided all of the information that they had. You can see online for yourself everything the Grand Jury considered.
The only thing that the DA did not do was advocate (or push) for an inditement for one of the charges. But in a politically charged case such as this, pushing a particular charge (or not) would also be second-guessed as bias.
It seems like a chunk of the people just wanted a lynch mob. Their minds were already made up and no amount of evidence would persuade them otherwise. I draw this harsh conclusion because the evidence that the Grand Jury saw is publically available, and nobody is making claims that the Grand Jury misread the evidence or made an irrational decision. I'm sure that individuals and academics will study this information at great length in the coming days, weeks and months - but at least the initial information is that the Grand Jury had all of the evidence, potential charges, etc.... and decided not to indite Wilson.
The rioting is highly disturbing, but the pictures of those idiots burning American flags is even more so.
It doesn't matter if J.C. himself came down and testified. There are certain segments of society that refuse to accept blame for anything.
Let me me see what we have so far
-The officer was racist (nope)
-The Ferguson Police department has a history of shooting and mistreating blacks (nope)
-The Police Chief is racist for showing a video of Mike Brown showing his true colors.(nope, this is relevant and is a fact)
-Mike Brown was only shop lifting (nope)
-He was shot in the back (nope)
-He was shot while surrendering (nope)
-Wilson was fired from his last police dept. (nope)
-Brown was just about to attend college (not proven, but I doubt it)
-Brown was a good student (5 high schools in 4 years?!)
-He needs to go to a GJ, and when does and they don't like the outcome, it's because
-The prosecutor always works with Ferguson PD (nope)
-The prosecutor is biased only towards this case. The reason, after being a States attorney for over 20 years, he suddenly is unfit to try THIS case, because his dad was murdered 50 years ago
-There weren't enough black jurors (juries are pulled from counties, not cities and this is the correct racial break down)
-There was too much evidence presented (really, really?!!!!)
-It wasn't transparent enough (compared to what?)
-My favorite, our own President says there is something wrong with our laws!!!!!!!
I honestly wanted/expected an indictment. Not that I think he's guilty in any way. I wanted the trial with a full open disclosure of every fact before a jury. I wanted the kid to get his day in court and every bit of evidence to point to what a stain on society he was and for it to be broadcast to 80 countries in 24 languages.
And when he came back "not guilty" there's no way anyone can say there was a coverup or a conspiracy or anything else. The evidence was all on the table for a jury (and the world) to clearly see that Officer Wilson was 100%in the right
Quote from: bayonetbrant on November 25, 2014, 07:08:23 PM
I honestly wanted/expected an indictment. Not that I think he's guilty in any way. I wanted the trial with a full open disclosure of every fact before a jury. I wanted the kid to get his day in court and every bit of evidence to point to what a stain on society he was and for it to be broadcast to 80 countries in 24 languages.
And when he came back "not guilty" there's no way anyone can say there was a coverup or a conspiracy or anything else. The evidence was all on the table for a jury (and the world) to clearly see that Officer Wilson was 100%in the right
That's supposedly why they released so much evidence given to the grand jury. It appears as this point that facts are irrelevant to the protesters/rioters. I doubt a trial would have produce a different outcome.
The best we can hope for is a nasty snowstorm or two to shut down the city for a few days. Let the temps drop into the teens with some solid wind behind them. When it's too cold to riot, they'll simmer down.
*RANT*
What really gets me...and anyone can call me racist if they want to...is where do these rioters get the time to riot? Don't they have jobs to go to? Oh, they don't? Are you telling me they are living on welfare and in government subsidized housing, paid for by tax money? And then they go out and burn their own dump of a town to the ground? Inconceivable.
Sure there are some blanket statements in what I have said above but I can assure you that it describes many if not most of the Ferguson rioters. Give me a break at how 'oppressed' you are while living on the government dole.
I understand history and know that the civil rights movement was necessary and noble. But this isn't 1964. There aren't 'white only' restaurants and 'white only' restrooms. They did exist, but they don't anymore.
It's time for perennial victims to STFU, stop blaming everyone but themselves, and get on with building true communities. Until they do that, I could care less how the police treat them. Give no respect and you should expect none in none in return.
*RANT*
Maybe it's time to field-test those 'super stink bomb' crowd control measures that the feds have been working on.
Quote from: Gusington on November 25, 2014, 07:44:13 PM
*RANT*
(yelling)
*RANT*
+ (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lifecenterli.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F11%2Finfinity-sign.bmp&hash=c3d6e876ec23e2cdaa89de626e089fa06a33838d)
I've seen lots of reliable reporting in different places that many of the rioters are NOT the locals.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on November 25, 2014, 08:02:59 PM
I've seen lots of reliable reporting in different places that many of the rioters are NOT the locals.
I heard that in some cases there were more news reporters than cameras. The news certainly has some culpability in this matter.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on November 25, 2014, 08:02:59 PM
I've seen lots of reliable reporting in different places that many of the rioters are NOT the locals.
I think that's probably a given. 'Agent Provocateur' would seem to be 'de rigueur'.
This is what the NFL would call "indisputable video evidence". At the 2:30 mark, Michael Brown Jr's stepfather clearly - CLEARLY and UNEQUIVOCALLY - incites the riot that just engulfed Ferguson.
SMH.
Bastard needs to go to jail.
I understand there is frustration and anger.
What I do not understand is why they feel they need to burn down their own city.
If they'd direct that anger at the drug dealers and kids who drop out of school they might actually improve their conditions.
Quote from: airboy on November 25, 2014, 01:31:08 PM
It seems like a chunk of the people just wanted a lynch mob. Their minds were already made up and no amount of evidence would persuade them otherwise.
This.
It wouldn't have mattered if Jesus Christ sat on the jury. Nothing short of the public hanging of the cop would satisfy the mob. And then they would still have
looted rioted anyway, just because.
Speaking of Messiahs, it kills me to know for the rest of my life, Obama will be there, flapping his piehole as an ex-President, weighing in on shit he knows nothing about (remember the questions of if he was "black enough"?), and generally fanning the flames. Seriously, I despise the s.o.b.
As a footnote, the church the Brown family attends was torched and burned to the ground. I doubt that's what he had in mind when he encouraged the mob to "burn the b%%ch down".
A female manager of Papa Johns defends her store.
Starts about the 1:10 mark.
That, my friends, is called bravery.
That was pretty stupid, IMHO.
Thanks for the well wishes, guys.
This is a very complicated issue, and tackling complicated issues is completely unsuited to the media. So we are left with rioting and burning based of myths and half-truths.
The prosecutor, Bob McCullough, is a good man and a straight shooter. He has been under intense political pressure from the get-go. People from the protest crowd from day one called on him to recuse himself based on the most flimsy of pretexts. The Governor was called on to appoint a special prosecutor, but decided against it. There is just so much fake, politically correct BS flying around out here, trying to wrap your mind around it just ends in frustration. The media reports on the parents of Mike Brown and everything they say as if they were saints who could speak no wrong. They are questioned and comment often on the situation, their opinions untouchable and of incredible importance. Its such a stupid game the media loves to play. The protestors opinions are similar, passed on without judgment and often endorsed by news anchors. This results in phony clamor against Bob McCullough, accusing him of anything and everything.
McCullough, from what I understand, looked at the evidence and didn't want to charge the officer with anything. The evidence was so strong suggesting that it was a justified shooting that there would be no chance of a successful prosecution. You don't indict someone unless you believe you have the evidence to convict at trial. Under intense political pressure he convened the unusual grand jury, where all evidence was laid out with the intention of making it all public in the end. He was damned if he did and damned if he didn't. You either cave to political pressure (and mob pressure) or you are a racist covering up a killer cop. It was a no-win situation from the moment of the shooting.
No matter what the facts are, the myth has been created. Mike Brown, the gentle giant, cut down by a racist cop and later killed again by a racist system. Its a myth that will never die and an easy narrative that generates huge ratings for the news media.
That's not even the sad part. The sad part is that there are real problems in African American communities that need to be addressed. I can only intelligently comment about the St. Louis area, but there are large pockets of the metro area that are poor and crime ridden. There have been at least 120 murders this year, 93% of them are blacks killing blacks. Its common place to see multi-homicide drive-by shootings which turn into high speed chases. It common for innocent bystanders to be gunned down in gang violence. One week before Brown was killed, a grandma walking down the street with her grandkids was blown away in gang crossfire, right in front of those kids. That was a 15 second piece on the nightly news, she is now forever forgotten.
The schools in the city and much of North County are a complete shambles, no reformer or set of reforms seems to make much difference. The family unit in these areas is destroyed, the tax base to run the schools is destroyed. Large parts of the city and parts of North County resemble war zones due to the number of abandoned and neglected properties.
And the final and most sad part is that since nobody is willing to address race and poverty in an honest matter- NOTHING WILL CHANGE. Whites will flee Ferguson even quicker than they already are. There will be no businesses, no services. It will become so bad that even the blacks will flee, eventually. The only thing left will be another bombed out swath of St. Louis. I am honestly ashamed of my country. We can't move beyond political correctness or the perceived truths we hold so dear to see the situation for what it really is.
If I had a magic wand that I waved and decreed that tomorrow and henceforth, policing will be perfect. There will be no unjustified shootings, no racial profiling, no harassing of innocents. The sad fact is that the poverty will remain. The gang violence will remain. The failing schools will remain. The utter hopelessness of life in the ghettos will remain largely unchanged. So, burn Ferguson in your mindless rage at the unjust murder of Mike Brown. Tomorrow you will be forgotten and you will be even worse off than before. Mob rule provides its just rewards.
There are no riots. The CBC said so. Those people are "protesting" and some are just "emotional".
I have avoided reading about the case until the results were out. To me it is pretty plain that first he got shot in the hand fighting the cop, then the kill shot is on the top of his head in the diagram. That is consistent with the charged full speed description, as in an attempt to tackle football style. If after being shot in the arm several times he charges, he is in to the death. If he had knocked down the cop, then killed him, he would still be hunted down as a cop killer. Either way it was his day to die by his own choosing.
The cop is clean IMO.
Quote from: Silent Disapproval Robot on November 26, 2014, 12:13:08 AM
There are no riots. The CBC said so. Those people are "protesting" and some are just "emotional".
Even our local media stress most of the protests are peaceful. They are so peaceful that 25 businesses were burned and many others looted.
I don't know why the left wants to make these people out as heroes so badly. I think some people are really missing the 60's.
fuck crucifixion
obama IS entitlement.
he's been the worst president for race relations in modern times.
Quote from: Swatter on November 25, 2014, 10:21:43 PM
Thanks for the well wishes, guys.
This is a very complicated issue, and tackling complicated issues is completely unsuited to the media. So we are left with rioting and burning based of myths and half-truths.
The prosecutor, Bob McCullough, is a good man and a straight shooter. He has been under intense political pressure from the get-go. People from the protest crowd from day one called on him to recuse himself based on the most flimsy of pretexts. The Governor was called on to appoint a special prosecutor, but decided against it. There is just so much fake, politically correct BS flying around out here, trying to wrap your mind around it just ends in frustration. The media reports on the parents of Mike Brown and everything they say as if they were saints who could speak no wrong. They are questioned and comment often on the situation, their opinions untouchable and of incredible importance. Its such a stupid game the media loves to play. The protestors opinions are similar, passed on without judgment and often endorsed by news anchors. This results in phony clamor against Bob McCullough, accusing him of anything and everything.
McCullough, from what I understand, looked at the evidence and didn't want to charge the officer with anything. The evidence was so strong suggesting that it was a justified shooting that there would be no chance of a successful prosecution. You don't indict someone unless you believe you have the evidence to convict at trial. Under intense political pressure he convened the unusual grand jury, where all evidence was laid out with the intention of making it all public in the end. He was damned if he did and damned if he didn't. You either cave to political pressure (and mob pressure) or you are a racist covering up a killer cop. It was a no-win situation from the moment of the shooting.
No matter what the facts are, the myth has been created. Mike Brown, the gentle giant, cut down by a racist cop and later killed again by a racist system. Its a myth that will never die and an easy narrative that generates huge ratings for the news media.
That's not even the sad part. The sad part is that there are real problems in African American communities that need to be addressed. I can only intelligently comment about the St. Louis area, but there are large pockets of the metro area that are poor and crime ridden. There have been at least 120 murders this year, 93% of them are blacks killing blacks. Its common place to see multi-homicide drive-by shootings which turn into high speed chases. It common for innocent bystanders to be gunned down in gang violence. One week before Brown was killed, a grandma walking down the street with her grandkids was blown away in gang crossfire, right in front of those kids. That was a 15 second piece on the nightly news, she is now forever forgotten.
The schools in the city and much of North County are a complete shambles, no reformer or set of reforms seems to make much difference. The family unit in these areas is destroyed, the tax base to run the schools is destroyed. Large parts of the city and parts of North County resemble war zones due to the number of abandoned and neglected properties.
And the final and most sad part is that since nobody is willing to address race and poverty in an honest matter- NOTHING WILL CHANGE. Whites will flee Ferguson even quicker than they already are. There will be no businesses, no services. It will become so bad that even the blacks will flee, eventually. The only thing left will be another bombed out swath of St. Louis. I am honestly ashamed of my country. We can't move beyond political correctness or the perceived truths we hold so dear to see the situation for what it really is.
If I had a magic wand that I waved and decreed that tomorrow and henceforth, policing will be perfect. There will be no unjustified shootings, no racial profiling, no harassing of innocents. The sad fact is that the poverty will remain. The gang violence will remain. The failing schools will remain. The utter hopelessness of life in the ghettos will remain largely unchanged. So, burn Ferguson in your mindless rage at the unjust murder of Mike Brown. Tomorrow you will be forgotten and you will be even worse off than before. Mob rule provides its just rewards.
What you've written is more intelligent and honest than anything I've seen in the media anywhere.
Quote from: Swatter on November 25, 2014, 10:21:43 PM
Thanks for the well wishes, guys.
This is a very complicated issue, and tackling complicated issues is completely unsuited to the media. So we are left with rioting and burning based of myths and half-truths.
The prosecutor, Bob McCullough, is a good man and a straight shooter. He has been under intense political pressure from the get-go. People from the protest crowd from day one called on him to recuse himself based on the most flimsy of pretexts. The Governor was called on to appoint a special prosecutor, but decided against it. There is just so much fake, politically correct BS flying around out here, trying to wrap your mind around it just ends in frustration. The media reports on the parents of Mike Brown and everything they say as if they were saints who could speak no wrong. They are questioned and comment often on the situation, their opinions untouchable and of incredible importance. Its such a stupid game the media loves to play. The protestors opinions are similar, passed on without judgment and often endorsed by news anchors. This results in phony clamor against Bob McCullough, accusing him of anything and everything.
McCullough, from what I understand, looked at the evidence and didn't want to charge the officer with anything. The evidence was so strong suggesting that it was a justified shooting that there would be no chance of a successful prosecution. You don't indict someone unless you believe you have the evidence to convict at trial. Under intense political pressure he convened the unusual grand jury, where all evidence was laid out with the intention of making it all public in the end. He was damned if he did and damned if he didn't. You either cave to political pressure (and mob pressure) or you are a racist covering up a killer cop. It was a no-win situation from the moment of the shooting.
No matter what the facts are, the myth has been created. Mike Brown, the gentle giant, cut down by a racist cop and later killed again by a racist system. Its a myth that will never die and an easy narrative that generates huge ratings for the news media.
That's not even the sad part. The sad part is that there are real problems in African American communities that need to be addressed. I can only intelligently comment about the St. Louis area, but there are large pockets of the metro area that are poor and crime ridden. There have been at least 120 murders this year, 93% of them are blacks killing blacks. Its common place to see multi-homicide drive-by shootings which turn into high speed chases. It common for innocent bystanders to be gunned down in gang violence. One week before Brown was killed, a grandma walking down the street with her grandkids was blown away in gang crossfire, right in front of those kids. That was a 15 second piece on the nightly news, she is now forever forgotten.
The schools in the city and much of North County are a complete shambles, no reformer or set of reforms seems to make much difference. The family unit in these areas is destroyed, the tax base to run the schools is destroyed. Large parts of the city and parts of North County resemble war zones due to the number of abandoned and neglected properties.
And the final and most sad part is that since nobody is willing to address race and poverty in an honest matter- NOTHING WILL CHANGE. Whites will flee Ferguson even quicker than they already are. There will be no businesses, no services. It will become so bad that even the blacks will flee, eventually. The only thing left will be another bombed out swath of St. Louis. I am honestly ashamed of my country. We can't move beyond political correctness or the perceived truths we hold so dear to see the situation for what it really is.
If I had a magic wand that I waved and decreed that tomorrow and henceforth, policing will be perfect. There will be no unjustified shootings, no racial profiling, no harassing of innocents. The sad fact is that the poverty will remain. The gang violence will remain. The failing schools will remain. The utter hopelessness of life in the ghettos will remain largely unchanged. So, burn Ferguson in your mindless rage at the unjust murder of Mike Brown. Tomorrow you will be forgotten and you will be even worse off than before. Mob rule provides its just rewards.
Great post.
But, but, don't you guys understand that this is like Ghandi and MLK?! CNN HAS SAID SO!
Are people in our country free to protest stupid things? Sure. Which by the way is obvious evidence that we don't live in the kind of police-state dictatorship this is being painted as. (See also: THEY LEFT HIS BODY IN THE STREET FOR 4-1/2 HOURS WAAAH!! -- because they were investigating his death almost immediately, in case the officer had committed a crime.)
But this is a case where peaceful protest was only going to fan the riots, ahem I mean the "unrest". Had there been an indictment that still would have led to riots.
Insisting on our rights is important, but insisting on rights at the expense of personal responsibility leads to, well, this. Which then gives credence for draconian dictatorship measures.
...WAIT YOU GUYS OBVIOUSLY THE GOVERNMENT SENT PEOPLE IN TO START THE RIOTS!! :crazy2:
Quote from: JasonPratt on November 26, 2014, 09:27:34 AM
....OBVIOUSLY THE GOVERNMENT SENT PEOPLE IN TO START THE RIOTS!! :crazy2:
Oooooo, that's a great one. Plant that around the interwebs and see the conspiracy theorists' heads explode with glee.
Quote from: Barthheart on November 26, 2014, 09:53:18 AM
Quote from: JasonPratt on November 26, 2014, 09:27:34 AM
....OBVIOUSLY THE GOVERNMENT SENT PEOPLE IN TO START THE RIOTS!! :crazy2:
Oooooo, that's a great one. Plant that around the interwebs and see the conspiracy theorists' heads explode with glee.
I'm certain that deep in the bowels of Hollywood Michael Moore is stirring his fat ass out of his stretch limo to create a "documentary" even as we speak.
If so many protesters (blacks mostly, on my TV new) throughout the USA in 170 mayor cities yesterday feel more loyal to a hidden Black Nation inside the USA then to the USA itself, which gets oppressed by the 'evil USA' by the hand of law and authority, why they just don't resign their apparently unwanted US-citizenship and flee to Liberia and similar countries?
(Liberia was mend to be the state founded for the freed former slaves, to build their nation - wasn't it? )
There they have it all! A black majority, all black government, black schools and so on...
They can take the responsibility they allways wanted and form a new better society all to their pleasing.
Let's see how this work out ;-)
OK, there maybe bribing, gangs, drugs, crimes, too ....but that is not a "Mayflower American" responsibility then.
Quote from: Barthheart on November 26, 2014, 09:53:18 AM
Quote from: JasonPratt on November 26, 2014, 09:27:34 AM
....OBVIOUSLY THE GOVERNMENT SENT PEOPLE IN TO START THE RIOTS!! :crazy2:
Oooooo, that's a great one. Plant that around the interwebs and see the conspiracy theorists' heads explode with glee.
Actually it's not far fetched when you consider the DoJ and the White House were pushing for an indictment before the facts were known to the public. They did the same thing in Florida. Don't think that did not have a major impact on what eventually transpired when the facts didn't support the politically correct, media driven drama of a racist, murdering cop killing a poor, innocent, gentle minority.
Swatter is my new hero. Great post. Why the myth will be allowed to continue is beyond me. Who benefits from it?
I just face palm over the desperate over simplification of the whole affair on both sides. I agree with Biggs ... again, the cop was clean
Quote from: Gusington on November 26, 2014, 12:09:45 PM
Swatter is my new hero. Great post. Why the myth will be allowed to continue is beyond me. Who benefits from it?
You already know the answer to that last question, Gus......
The first rule in politics (and believe me, this
is politics) is follow the money. A lot of people are suffering because of the riots and unrest, but for other's, it's money in their pocket and more power. Race hustler's gotta hustle, and that mantra extends all the way to the top.
This may sound naive but my jury is still out on whether Obama is in the same class as other race hustlers.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fa5.files.biography.com%2Fimage%2Fupload%2Fc_fill%2Cdpr_1.0%2Cg_face%2Ch_300%2Cq_80%2Cw_300%2FMTIwNjA4NjMzNTczNjM5Njky.jpg&hash=c699986121f48683f1dd40568c17440f7670d92b)
Quote from: Gusington on November 26, 2014, 02:51:44 PM
This may sound naive but my jury is still out on whether Obama is in the same class as other race hustlers.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fa5.files.biography.com%2Fimage%2Fupload%2Fc_fill%2Cdpr_1.0%2Cg_face%2Ch_300%2Cq_80%2Cw_300%2FMTIwNjA4NjMzNTczNjM5Njky.jpg&hash=c699986121f48683f1dd40568c17440f7670d92b)
I'm not just talking about Obama. Sharpton, the Dems, there are a lot of people who profit from racial unrest. Consider the last minute tactics in the recent election where Dems were using Ferguson as a rallying cry to get the vote out...as if having Dems in power stops such things.
But as for Obama, wait until he's a year out of office and see how quickly the jury returns a verdict......
(https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/8386523136/hD90F1778/)
The reason you don't see honesty like mine in the media is that the thoughts I expressed would be quickly branded as racist. I said something similar on Twitter once and some twit threatened to go to my employer.
The only time frank talk about race is allowed is if it comes from an African American, and then he's an Uncle Tom. Jason Riley from the Wall Street Journal has it right on, but he is utterly toxic when it comes to politically correct race discussions.
Frankly folks, I am ashamed to be an American. There is no more common sense. We have become a country where disagreement has become- not a learning experience- but grounds for seeing the worst motives in people. We are so polarized that fact and evidence are only useful if it is convenient. There is no seeing anything from someone else's shoes. Its all about demonizing those you disagree with. I am a centrist and I feel like I have no place in this country.
Quote from: Gusington on November 26, 2014, 12:09:45 PM
Swatter is my new hero. Great post. Why the myth will be allowed to continue is beyond me. Who benefits from it?
The PC Drama Queen Media - competing for extra viewers.
Race "hustler" politicians looking for more political power.
Rioters stealing other people's stuff.
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QuoteAs CNN anchor Miguel Marquez reported on "peaceful" protests in New York City supporting 18-year-old Michael Brown, the man killed by Ferguson police officer Darren Wilson, he was likely caught off guard by the chants that quickly drowned out his own voice.
"This is a very peaceful protest," he reported. "People are extremely upset though, and as we have gone through the night, the anger, the level of voices has only gotten louder."
Suddenly, chants of "f*** CNN!" derailed the live report. The chants continued to get louder, with one man also flipping off the camera while chanting.
source: http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/11/25/cnn-anchor-likely-wasnt-expecting-this-to-happen-live-on-the-air-as-he-reported-on-peaceful-pro-michael-brown-protests-in-nyc/
Unbelievable.
I just ran across this op/ed in Time.
QuoteThe violent protests in Ferguson, Mo., are part of the American experience. Peaceful protesting is a luxury only available to those safely in mainstream culture
source: http://time.com/3605606/ferguson-in-defense-of-rioting/
I suspect we'll soon see "peaceful" protests when an election doesn't go the way it should according to our betters.
Does Cabela's have a black Friday sale? I'm in the market for a shotgun again. This time I am not negotiating with The Wife.
Quote from: LongBlade on November 26, 2014, 06:06:25 PM
Unbelievable.
I just ran across this op/ed in Time.
QuoteThe violent protests in Ferguson, Mo., are part of the American experience. Peaceful protesting is a luxury only available to those safely in mainstream culture
source: http://time.com/3605606/ferguson-in-defense-of-rioting/ (http://time.com/3605606/ferguson-in-defense-of-rioting/)
How is it unbelievable? We do have a long history of violent protest
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Massacre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Massacre)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Malcolm_%28Loyalist%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Malcolm_%28Loyalist%29)
Those "f%ck CNN" f&cktards were apologized for by the reporters, so it's okay. Nevermind the city burning in the background, the looters running rampant and hitting reporters in heads with rocks or busting up 10,000-50,000-dollar remote news cameras, or the stores being torn to pieces by savage bare hands.
::)
Today I was witness to a rather startling event that nearly got me into a fight. I only mention it here because it reminded me of the sense of entitlement some people have (not necessarily black people, just assholes in general). The wife and I were at Target and two people ahead of me in line were buying some sweatpants and a couple of shirts. They were black, a young man and a kid. (The whole 'black' vs. 'African-American' thing, don't get me started on that bullsh!t.) I have no problem with the guy's race at all. I only point it out because the guy was a complete entitled dickhead to the cashier. He was short a little less than a dollar and was searching and searching and holding up the line, so the cashier nicely put her hand into her OWN pocket and pulled out change to cover it. The guy just stood there and didn't say a word - not a 'thank you,' 'that's very nice, I appreciate it,' just an entitled, smug look on his face. And, the worst part is, the cashier had to give him back change - she wasn't allowed to put money in her pocket. And he took it, again, with no thank you, nothing.
That REALLY pissed me off, so very loudly I said something to the effect of, "Wow, that was REALLY nice of you, ma'am! I bet he's really, really, REALLY appreciative of that! Even though he didn't actually SAY anything." I was rather sarcastic and laying it on. He gave me an eat shit look and looked like he was going to turn on me, but as his skinny butt was half the size of mine and I had almost a foot and a half on him he just bristled and walked out the door. I think it was that last line that pissed him off, but f&ck that guy. Asshole.
My wife hit me and said she'd be hiding behind me as we walked out the door.
The look on the guy's face, the lack of a simple thanks...RRRRR...granted, he wasn't burning the place down, but he was all looking like 'damn right you're covering MY purchase.' Oh man I see red when I think about it. Nothing to do with black or white, just good f*cking manners for christssakes.
I echo Swatter's sentiments. I love my country, but for f&ck's sakes, why do so many people have to go out of their way to make it a worse place to live - and beyond that, why is it so f&cking hard to see that and do something about it? To the point that it's an embarrassment?
Quote from: Gusington on November 26, 2014, 07:14:21 PM
Does Cabela's have a black Friday sale? I'm in the market for a shotgun again. This time I am not negotiating with The Wife.
Big sale on the UTAS-15 up here in Canuckistan. $499 from Wolverine Supplies.
I really like my Kel-Tec KSG shotty. Holds 15 rounds and the bullpup design gives it an overall length of only 26".
^Is it relatively small and easy to handle, like me?
BC I think we are the same person in different bodies.
^That's a 'no.'
Completely agree with Swatter.
I have seen friends make social media posts about all this and have tried not to participate as I also think my views would not be appreciated. I had to step in when I saw some were not happy about the jury make up. I pointed out the 2013 Missouri census and the %'s of people in the state. I guess bad math is pretty rampant these days.
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on November 26, 2014, 08:25:32 PM
Those "f%ck CNN" f&cktards were apologized for by the reporters, so it's okay. Nevermind the city burning in the background, the looters running rampant and hitting reporters in heads with rocks or busting up 10,000-50,000-dollar remote news cameras, or the stores being torn to pieces by savage bare hands.
::)
Today I was witness to a rather startling event that nearly got me into a fight. I only mention it here because it reminded me of the sense of entitlement some people have (not necessarily black people, just assholes in general). The wife and I were at Target and two people ahead of me in line were buying some sweatpants and a couple of shirts. They were black, a young man and a kid. (The whole 'black' vs. 'African-American' thing, don't get me started on that bullsh!t.) I have no problem with the guy's race at all. I only point it out because the guy was a complete entitled dickhead to the cashier. He was short a little less than a dollar and was searching and searching and holding up the line, so the cashier nicely put her hand into her OWN pocket and pulled out change to cover it. The guy just stood there and didn't say a word - not a 'thank you,' 'that's very nice, I appreciate it,' just an entitled, smug look on his face. And, the worst part is, the cashier had to give him back change - she wasn't allowed to put money in her pocket. And he took it, again, with no thank you, nothing.
That REALLY pissed me off, so very loudly I said something to the effect of, "Wow, that was REALLY nice of you, ma'am! I bet he's really, really, REALLY appreciative of that! Even though he didn't actually SAY anything." I was rather sarcastic and laying it on. He gave me an eat shit look and looked like he was going to turn on me, but as his skinny butt was half the size of mine and I had almost a foot and a half on him he just bristled and walked out the door. I think it was that last line that pissed him off, but f&ck that guy. Asshole.
My wife hit me and said she'd be hiding behind me as we walked out the door.
The look on the guy's face, the lack of a simple thanks...RRRRR...granted, he wasn't burning the place down, but he was all looking like 'damn right you're covering MY purchase.' Oh man I see red when I think about it. Nothing to do with black or white, just good f*cking manners for christssakes.
I echo Swatter's sentiments. I love my country, but for f&ck's sakes, why do so many people have to go out of their way to make it a worse place to live - and beyond that, why is it so f&cking hard to see that and do something about it? To the point that it's an embarrassment?
What can you say about a story like that? My sister is a manager at a grocery market and was handling a complaint of some black people. It was some very minor thing which she politely handled to the best of her ability. As they were leaving she apologized again for the trouble and they turned around and threw up their hands and yelled "Don't Shoot!" Kind of ironic, considering the neighborhood, but I digress. My brother is an ambulance driver and his company services the poor areas of north city and north county. They just don't hate police, they hate firemen and other first responders too. Often times when he responds to calls, the relatives of the person in distress are not helpful and sometimes actually hinder what they are doing. There is no restraint to the hostility, from what I hear.
Needless to say, such things are hard to believe (especially the hostility to first responders). The media would never, ever touch such issues. Only on Fox News did you hear that fire trucks couldn't respond to some fires due to being shot at. Believe it or not, those are not incidents exclusive to the last couple of nights. I know its hard to frickin believe, but fire trucks get shot at in north city and county.
Look, I don't think these are racial issue either. The family unit in these areas is non-existent for an awful lot of people. The youth revel in a culture that hates police, whites, and authority. The destruction of these communities is near total, both spiritual and physical. This is why they burn and riot, but very few dare utter such truths.
One final thing about the riots, media, myth, and false narratives. Years ago I worked at three different Dominos Pizza stores (one which was burned down in the riots) and these stores cover the core of the area experiencing the riots. The media would have you believe that these large groups of people at the protests are drawn out there by injustice. The truth, something which only a first-hand witness could see, is that large roving bands of unsupervised youth roam the streets of the area in the evening into the morning hours, going years back when I worked up there (20+ years ago). My drivers would come back from deliveries after dark scared shitless (drivers were black and lived in the area no less). I honestly thought they were BSing me in order to avoid delivering to areas where they know tips will be poor. One evening a driver directly told me she wasn't going to make another delivery along St. Louis Avenue until I saw for myself. I called her bluff and went on a delivery with her- I was dead wrong. These were at least 100 unsupervised kids walking in the middle of the street extending down a couple of blocks (school night around 10). Needless to say we got funny looks, but nobody bothered us. Bear in mind, no matter what neighborhood you are in, a delivery driver always has to have eyes in the back of their head. So, delivery to neighborhoods with roving band of kids is no pleasant experience.
Next time you hear about the noble protestors gathering in Ferguson, you have to realize that these unsupervised youths already wander the street and needed only to walk several blocks over. This was especially true in August when this behavior is most prevalent, that is why the crowds took so long to die down. In addition, in between the protests (and during), black people are still killing each other in drive by shootings. Kids are still being shot in the head and put in dumpsters. The murder rate in St. Louis is actually very high this year, among the highest in years. On the local news every night, sandwiched in between the protest stories, are the normal, expected shootings and murders. The murders that don't matter to the protestors.
I'm so glad obama ended racism in America.
Banzai_Cat, I'm so glad you put that jerkass in his place. (Maybe wasn't the smartest thing to do, but man I'm proud of ya.) O0
Swatter...I am at a loss for words. To say that I am "sad" doesn't even begin to describe it.
Quote from: Martok on November 27, 2014, 03:12:29 AM
Banzai_Cat, I'm so glad you put that jerkass in his place. (Maybe wasn't the smartest thing to do, but man I'm proud of ya.) O0
Swatter...I am at a loss for words. To say that I am "sad" doesn't even begin to describe it.
Swatter's observations would be good to remember next time we hear some story about villagers attacking Ebola workers and tell ourselves it's because they are ignorant and superstitious third-worlders. Here at home the Third World could be just a few blocks from Picket-Fence Lane.
Quote from: Swatter on November 27, 2014, 02:01:10 AM
My brother is an ambulance driver and his company services the poor areas of north city and north county. They just don't hate police, they hate firemen and other first responders too. Often times when he responds to calls, the relatives of the person in distress are not helpful and sometimes actually hinder what they are doing. There is no restraint to the hostility, from what I hear.
I totally understand. I was a paramedic for four years in Houston and if you cross one street you can go from $500,000+ homes to ghettos, literally. Houston has no zoning, so there's no rhyme nor reason to their set-up. We were stared down plenty of times by thug jackasses and met all kinds of resistance in doing our jobs on some nights. The funny thing is, gangs react along racial lines to us. The Hispanic gangs were always decent to us, never caused trouble or blocked us or anything, especially when we had to work on one of their own. We'd do that and if the kid pulled through, these guys would go out of their way to try to pay us back. We got flagged down a few times with "Heeyyy, man, you guys want some fresh tortillas? My grams just baked a ton, bato!" We were officially told not to accept that kind of thing, but we did, only after a bit of hemming and hawing because we had to work in the streets with these guys and not accepting it would have been an insult ultimately. (And when they call you 'bato' you know you're good.) Black gangs, though...oh hell, forget about it. Those were the ones that stared us down, made noise and screamed and cried and bumped us/shoved us around. More often than not we'd have to load them instead of stabilizing on scene just to get the f&ck outta there. It got to the point that we wouldn't respond to calls in certain areas without Sheriff, Constable, or Houston Police presence there first. Others, like the barrio areas, we'd respond without hesitation.
And community activists (black community activists) often lament that services are impossible to come by in their neighborhoods.
Well, f&cking duh, you goddamn dumbasses.
Quote from: Gusington on November 26, 2014, 08:57:03 PM
^Is it relatively small and easy to handle, like me?
Looking at that vid, I would say, "yes."
They are small and easy to handle.
What you seem to be afraid of is the recoil. That's going to happen with any 12 gauge, Gus. The only way to mitigate that is to go to a smaller bore. A smaller bore will be a bigger number - 20. *Don't* get a 10 gauge if you want a shotgun with less recoil.
If you don't like the idea of getting a 20 gauge then you might want to consider either a pistol or a rifle.
Probably the best thing for you to do is to offer to buy Jarhead a cup of coffee and let him walk you through the ins and outs of what's best for you. The best solution for you may not necessarily be "buy a shotgun."
You have ammunition choices with a shotgun that affect the recoil too, like bird shot (less powder) vs buck shot (more powder).
Gus, how about the civilian variant of the UMP the USC in .45 ? (Americans love that caliber)
http://www.heckler-koch.com/en/products/sport/rifles/usc/usc/technical-data.html
it is only semi auto so should be legal to own (it even is in Germany, so a HK represent told me at a HK booth at the "Jagd und Hund"-tradefair some time ago ...malus: only 10 rounds mag, here)
i dunno if civilian variant of MP5s are available, then i would go for those !
there is no recoil to speak off
in addition to the shotgun of course, not instead >:D
Quote from: Airborne Rifles on November 27, 2014, 09:46:51 AM
You have ammunition choices with a shotgun that affect the recoil too, like bird shot (less powder) vs buck shot (more powder).
What's the skinny on flechette rounds? Are they worth considering for defensive purposes?
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_info.php/pName/5rds-12-gauge-flechette-ammo
In the comments a poster says they have low recoil.
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Quote from: GDS_Starfury on November 27, 2014, 10:00:01 AM
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That comes with more range time.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on November 27, 2014, 10:00:01 AM
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ok
recoil is a good thing
when the CNN reporter ask you what did you felt when you shot that black 27 year old
kid 250 pounds home intruder that raped your dog and beat your wife
Answer: Recoil ;)
I'm wondering if the gun laws in MO are anywhere near what they are in, say, Texas.
If someone enters your property here with malicious intent, you're justified with blowing them away. (Better be ready to prove it, but most home invasions aren't Welcome Wagons to begin with.)
I wondered why there were not more business owners camping out in their stores with enough firepower to level a battalion or two, unless the law is not on their side in those matters.
The more this crap happens the more I think of these people as the PRH Dolist in David Webers Honor Harrington series.
If you are a business you would have to be able to prove beyond a doubt that the looters intending you harm, not just your merchandise or building. You can't (legally) shoot someone for shoplifting, no matter how much you want to. One day, though, some old shopkeep with nothing to lose will blow away a bunch of wilding punks and then we will have another media circus. I really really hope that when it happens the shopkeep will be of the same ethnicity as the looters so we can focus on the crime itself (as well as the crimes that lead up to it).
Quote from: Staggerwing on November 27, 2014, 09:55:46 AM
Quote from: Airborne Rifles on November 27, 2014, 09:46:51 AM
You have ammunition choices with a shotgun that affect the recoil too, like bird shot (less powder) vs buck shot (more powder).
What's the skinny on flechette rounds? Are they worth considering for defensive purposes?
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_info.php/pName/5rds-12-gauge-flechette-ammo
In the comments a poster says they have low recoil.
I'm certainly no hom defense ammo guru. I Would just look at the the shell and if the metal portion at the base is bigger then that means more powder and more recoil, smaller means less.
Quote from: OJsDad on November 27, 2014, 10:12:18 AM
The more this crap happens the more I think of these people as the PRH Dolist in David Webers Honor Harrington series.
QFT!
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on November 27, 2014, 10:10:40 AM
I'm wondering if the gun laws in MO are anywhere near what they are in, say, Texas.
Last I checked, it's not so free-wheeling here in MO.
It used to be long ago IIRC but the city Libs went all out to make sure the Castle Defense isn't so easy. We have a huge amount of countryside farm land where the authorities are 15 to 30 minutes away so those in the country (including my family) still swear they'll blast an intruder who's inside their house. In those areas, the police only show up to bag & tag whomever gets the short end, so it better be the other guy. A jury of your peers would see you through the aftermath just fine.
But we also have two major cities in our state, and unfortunately that's the only place part of our gov't and representatives focus their attention. Since the situation is a bit different in the cities (I would argue against that to some extent), there's a higher chance you'll get charged by a jury for killing someone who broke into your home. There are as many idealist unicorns in the city as others.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on November 27, 2014, 10:23:15 AM
Quote from: OJsDad on November 27, 2014, 10:12:18 AM
The more this crap happens the more I think of these people as the PRH Dolist in David Webers Honor Harrington series.
QFT!
This has been my view of the Democratic Party for years. They are the party of entitlement, therefore the more people who depend upon the government for their subsistence, for their medical, for their cell phones, the more people will vote for the Democrats. It's the dirty little secret behind the immigration issue. Ask yourself this....if Hispanic voters overwhelmingly leaned toward the Republican Party, do you think Obama would have done what he did on immigration this week?
I don't agree with everything Republicans do or believe in, but I
cannot vote for a Democrat. It's that simple.
" My brother is an ambulance driver and his company services the poor areas of north city and north county. They just don't hate police, they hate firemen and other first responders "
They hate you because you're white. They are being taught this from childbirth through (if they attend) college. Don't you know it's YOUR fault they hate you?
Quote from: LongBlade on November 27, 2014, 09:16:48 AM
Quote from: Gusington on November 26, 2014, 08:57:03 PM
^Is it relatively small and easy to handle, like me?
Looking at that vid, I would say, "yes."
They are small and easy to handle.
What you seem to be afraid of is the recoil. That's going to happen with any 12 gauge, Gus. The only way to mitigate that is to go to a smaller bore. A smaller bore will be a bigger number - 20. *Don't* get a 10 gauge if you want a shotgun with less recoil.
If you don't like the idea of getting a 20 gauge then you might want to consider either a pistol or a rifle.
Probably the best thing for you to do is to offer to buy Jarhead a cup of coffee and let him walk you through the ins and outs of what's best for you. The best solution for you may not necessarily be "buy a shotgun."
Use 2 3/4" low recoil slugs and you'll be fine. The recoil is quite manageable with those. The KSG does have a recoil dampening pad built into the stock but using 3" magnum rounds will still give you quite a kick.
Remember what a lot of Korean shopkeepers did in LA in 1992? They didn't mess around. They rallied together and defended their property like professionals.
Quote from: Nefaro on November 27, 2014, 10:29:23 AM
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on November 27, 2014, 10:10:40 AM
I'm wondering if the gun laws in MO are anywhere near what they are in, say, Texas.
Last I checked, it's not so free-wheeling here in MO.
It used to be long ago IIRC but the city Libs went all out to make sure the Castle Defense isn't so easy. We have a huge amount of countryside farm land where the authorities are 15 to 30 minutes away so those in the country (including my family) still swear they'll blast an intruder who's inside their house. In those areas, the police only show up to bag & tag whomever gets the short end, so it better be the other guy. A jury of your peers would see you through the aftermath just fine.
But we also have two major cities in our state, and unfortunately that's the only place part of our gov't and representatives focus their attention. Since the situation is a bit different in the cities (I would argue against that to some extent), there's a higher chance you'll get charged by a jury for killing someone who broke into your home. There are as many idealist unicorns in the city as others.
Alabama has had Castle Defense for ages. Really cuts down on robberies of occupied homes. We fairly recently got "stand your ground" legislation. Still, anyone who would not avoid a gunfight whenever possible is an idiot.
Quote from: airboy on November 28, 2014, 10:13:09 AMStill, anyone who would not avoid a gunfight whenever possible is an idiot.
One of the first lessons in karate you'll learn is "the best way to avoid a punch is not to be there."
Avoid when and where you are able.
Darren Wilson, the Ferguson police officer who shot Michael Brown has resigned (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/30/us/ferguson.html?_r=0).
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/jeffrey-meyer/2014/11/26/naacp-president-burn-bi-down-not-call-violence
QuoteOn Tuesday night, Cornell Brooks, president of the NAACP, appeared on CNN's Erin Burnett OutFront to discuss the shooting death of Michael Brown and dismissed calls for violence by a member of Michael Brown's immediate family as inciting violence. Burnett played video of Brown's stepfather, Louis Head, telling a crowd of protestors to "burn this bi*** down" after the grand jury decided not to indict Officer Darren Wilson and asked Brooks if "that served as a call for violence?" Rather than condemn Brown's stepfather's highly charged rhetoric, the president of the NAACP proclaimed "I don't think that was a call for violence or it caused violence."
According to the head of the NAACP
Quote"The fact of the matter is, a single act of violence set this tragic set of consequences into motion. That being the shooting of Michael Brown by Officer Darren Wilson. That's what, in fact, caused all of this"
Silly me, I though the tragic set of consequences was set in motion by the robbery of a convenience store by Michael Brown.
^Yeah me too, I am so led astray! What a load of horse crap.
Pants up.
Don't loot.
Im cool with them looting belts.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on November 30, 2014, 11:24:56 AM
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/jeffrey-meyer/2014/11/26/naacp-president-burn-bi-down-not-call-violence
QuoteOn Tuesday night, Cornell Brooks, president of the NAACP, appeared on CNN's Erin Burnett OutFront to discuss the shooting death of Michael Brown and dismissed calls for violence by a member of Michael Brown's immediate family as inciting violence. Burnett played video of Brown's stepfather, Louis Head, telling a crowd of protestors to "burn this bi*** down" after the grand jury decided not to indict Officer Darren Wilson and asked Brooks if "that served as a call for violence?" Rather than condemn Brown's stepfather's highly charged rhetoric, the president of the NAACP proclaimed "I don't think that was a call for violence or it caused violence."
According to the head of the NAACP
Quote"The fact of the matter is, a single act of violence set this tragic set of consequences into motion. That being the shooting of Michael Brown by Officer Darren Wilson. That's what, in fact, caused all of this"
Disappointing.
Are there any grown ups left in the NAACP?
This is when good leadership is needed most.
Quote from: Swatter on November 26, 2014, 04:15:58 PM
Frankly folks, I am ashamed to be an American. There is no more common sense. We have become a country where disagreement has become- not a learning experience- but grounds for seeing the worst motives in people. We are so polarized that fact and evidence are only useful if it is convenient. There is no seeing anything from someone else's shoes. Its all about demonizing those you disagree with. I am a centrist and I feel like I have no place in this country.
Every time I get depressed thinking about that, I remember this has really
always been true in United States politics.
Then instead of being more depressed about it, I think about how far we've been able to come (and Western Civilization generally) despite that. :)
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2014/nov/25/ferguson-grand-jury-decision-annotated
excellent annotation of the prosecutor's speech
I don't agree with everything they said, but they really dig into it line by line and pull out a lot of details
Quote from: bayonetbrant on December 01, 2014, 12:14:29 PM
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2014/nov/25/ferguson-grand-jury-decision-annotated
excellent annotation of the prosecutor's speech
I don't agree with everything they said, but they really dig into it line by line and pull out a lot of details
Clearly the 24 hour news cycle was unproductive.
Quote from: Centurion40 on November 26, 2014, 03:14:06 PM
(https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/8386523136/hD90F1778/)
Going back to this a minute, I counted at least 3/7 maybe 4/8 of the photo'd looters being as white as I am, maybe whiter.
(I say "maybe whiter" because I doubt any of them have ever avoided being detained for questioning by being demonstrably too stupid to be an Iranian terrorist. ;) But I have an amusing story in that regard.)
Mom said they probably came in from out of the area in order to join the fun.
Excellent observation, Jason!
I don't see many work boots being taken.......just sayin'.
Good point, Steelie. A good set of steel-toed boots is freakin' expensive!
Quote from: Steelgrave on December 01, 2014, 01:21:09 PM
I don't see many work boots being taken.......just sayin'.
That's probably because guys who need work boots were working the third shift when that pic was taken.
Charles Barkley weighed in on the situation. I wonder if he'll be demonized by the usual suspects for alluding to the real underlying cultural problems and the ridiculously biased handling by the media.
Why Charles Barkley supports the Ferguson grand jury decision
Former NBA star Charles Barkley recently called Ferguson looters "scumbags," praised police officers who work in black neighborhoods, and said he supports the decision made by the grand jury not to indict officer Darren Wilson in the Michael Brown shooting.
During an interview on 97.5 The Fanatic in Philadelphia on Tuesday, the day after the Ferguson decision was announced, host Mike Missanelli asked Barkley about it and why "black America" doesn't trust the ruling.
His response surprised some listeners.
"The true story came out from the grand jury testimony," Barkley said, adding that he was made aware of "key forensic evidence, and several black witnesses that supported Officer Darren Wilson's story..." He continued, "I can't believe anything I hear on television anymore. And, that's why I don't like talking about race issues with the media anymore, because they (the media) love this stuff, and lead people to jump to conclusions. The media shouldn't do that. They never do that when black people kill each other. "
He also called those who rioted after the decision was announced "scumbags," and said "There is no excuse for people to be out there burning down people's businesses, burning down police cars."
And in a marked departure from other prominent black leaders who have questioned tactics used by officers and, in some cases, accused officers of racial profiling and outright racism, Barkley supported police officers, especially those who work in black neighborhoods.
"[W]e have to be really careful with the cops, because if it wasn't for the cops we would be living in the Wild, Wild West in our neighborhoods," he said. "We can't pick out certain incidentals that don't go our way and act like the cops are all bad.... Do you know how bad some of these neighborhoods would be if it wasn't for the cops?"
His comments are in sharp contrast with those made by other black leaders on the Ferguson case. Rev. Al Sharpton and civil rights activist Jesse Jackson have both criticized the Ferguson decision and racial profiling by police. President Obama is scheduled to hold meetings with civil rights groups Monday on law enforcement and how to rebuild trust in black communities.
cont..
http://news.yahoo.com/why-charles-barkley-supports-ferguson-grand-jury-decision-163736319.html
Of course he won't be demonized. He's black, so he has a free pass to talk about it that frankly...and to be considered seriously by some media.
Frankly I think he's a great guy for not being afraid to speak his mind. I'm glad he's able to weigh in with some common sense stuff and calling out those a-holes in the media for being instigators in this sh!t.
Barkley will be labeled an "Uncle Tom" before the last fire burns out in Ferguson. It's like you can't be black and be a Republican, it's simply not tolerated by the masses. Viewpoints which don't support the race baiter's agenda are to be dismissed, scorned or attacked, all with the compliant help of the boot-licking media.
This is from a former colleague in the SC ARNG. He's a full-time cop when he's not globe-hopping in the reserves
QuoteI was never in Ferguson, nor did I see what happened, but I will say that during a period of 8 years, I fought to retain my sidearm 6 times from an "unarmed" person. It only took once to put a .45 hollow point in my side. I was hardly "under-trained," and had experience as a patrol officer and SWAT officer in real world "street fighting" where there's no "tap outs." Last week, a police officer was murdered in New York in precisely the same fashion of the assault in Ferguson as he dismounted his vehicle. Maybe he didn't have the time to take action, or maybe he had second thoughts on a more appropriate level of force...we'll never know. From my foxhole, there is a whole lot of demand by the public for "cookie cutter" results a'la "Blue Bloods," or name your city fantasy crime scene tech, from these lethal force encounters. You can't treat stuff like this as a battle drill, or a clean flowchart as in a scene from TV crime drama, It is rarely clean and antiseptic. Well, you can treat it like a battle drill, in that attempting to grab a police officer's sidearm will get you shot. I don't think that is the answer, though. 5 of my six assailants never got shot, but met Mr. H&K or Mr. Glock after getting a violent physical pounding to retain the weapon and stop the assault. The 6th was beaten into the ground by myself and three others as I was bleeding to death. You couldn't have shot without hitting an innocent bystander at a crowded mall.
The training is there. What is missing from the debate is the fact that the criminal suspect has a vote. Not only does he have "A" vote, he has "THE" vote whereas the officer has to react to it. There's no criminal OPFOR task, conditions, and standards like in the MTP. You can try to anticipate the actions of the irrational, the drunk, the drugged, the crazed, and the sociopaths. You can try to rationalise what they do. Sometimes you come out on top. Sometimes you don't. Key here is that the suspect makes a choice in how things turn out.
Although there is allowance for a police officer to retreat, in practice and fact there isn't. In practice, you aren't allowed to by the public, your body politic, and the media. Tactically, removing yourself may lessen the problem, as in the case of an emerging block riot. Let the 10 knuckleheads burn themselves out and clean up the mess when people defend themselves. One damaged place and a few idiots hurt versus a neighborhood in flames. The math works out. The problem is, is that when someone gets hurt, you "failed" to do your job, and the federal lawsuit is a 'comin, your agency and you are villified in the press, and your head is demanded on a platter. The same as if you did the worst possible thing. This has led to extreme micromanagement of agencies by elected officials, "activists," and legal staffs with the luxury of "Monday Morning Quarterbacking." The fallout of this is extreme paralysis of the law enforcement agencies, who have basically been relegated from thinking on the spot, to being little more than "meat robots" in many areas. Only the most dynamic and outspoken police executives have been able to resist this in their jurisdictions.
The leadership of the department has a very big vote in how things are handled quickly, fairly, and openly. The same applies to the civil elected leaders. When you have a department and a body politic who act like there's something to hide, you kill public trust, and create the issues that we are seeing now. Coupled with the dominant public philosophy of "truth is what I want it to be," the department and civil leadership must be the first with the most accurate facts and control the narrative....just like in theatre. The public deserves the truth, and should get it.
I don't mean to lecture, but the bottom line is this: "The people have gotten what they asked for." The politicians listened. They don't want liberty as defined by our 1000 year old Common Law heritage. They want license. They want stuff. They sure as heck don't want you standing in their way, and as long as they keep voting, the politicians are on their side. You will find more conservative constitutionalists under the badge of all races than not. Sadly, these agencies do not write the laws, nor set policy. When you have a public ethos of a petulant 5 year old in our society. the best that you can do is try to protect those who don't want to be a victim.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on December 01, 2014, 12:14:29 PM
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2014/nov/25/ferguson-grand-jury-decision-annotated
excellent annotation of the prosecutor's speech
I don't agree with everything they said, but they really dig into it line by line and pull out a lot of details
Excellent, except they misspelled "excuse" in there.
Sir Charles is The Man.
Gus is 6"4"
Snopes has the story on this (http://www.snopes.com/photos/politics/fergusonsign.asp). It's totally fake.
That I'm 6'4" or the thing about Barkley?
:2funny:
that you're 6'4"... in circumference
Well chicks dig the girth.
Quote from: Gusington on December 03, 2014, 03:13:21 PM
Well chicks dig the girth.
You could try calling it "Gearth", it's so large.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on December 02, 2014, 11:43:48 PM
Snopes has the story on this (http://www.snopes.com/photos/politics/fergusonsign.asp). It's totally fake.
Totally fake, but totally appropriate. :2funny:
In other St. Louis news, a Bosnian man was beat to death with hammers by a group of young men, 4 of 5 which are black. The city police are claiming they are trying to figure out the motive, but it was most certainly a planned attack on a random person (who happens to be white). I would bet everything I own that they were saying "This is for Mike Brown" as they beat him to death. Of course, the media will ignore that part if the police ever comment on motive.
A little like the media ignored what I call the "EBT Bombers". Last week two St. Louis men were arrested in a sting to buy pipe bombs. They were planning on bombing the Arch and killing a couple of police officials (related to Ferguson unrest). So, they bought a gun using their welfare EBT card and tried to buy the pipe bombs using an EBT card also. The awesomely stupid part of the story is that when they were buying the pipe bomb from the federal agent, they wanted to buy more but that they couldn't until their baby's momma's EBT rolled over again.
So, just so you guys know (in case you already didn't), the media will never tell you the whole story related to Ferguson. The next day after the "EBT Bombers" story broke, I asked several of my relatives if they heard the story. I believe most read something about it, but NONE knew about the part where they tried to but weapons with an EBT card. They were shocked. I wasn't, the local media walks on egg shells when it comes to reporting negative things about blacks.
You would think the weight of the awesome amount of common sense would eventually crush this stupidity, but never ever underestimate the power of the media to be morons.
The Media are no more a bunch of morons than the folks at McDonalds who create the menu items are morons. They just have no shame. Mainstream news is now a consumer product. If it sells then it ships, end of story.
You want fries with that?
Quote from: Swatter on December 03, 2014, 06:22:37 PM
In other St. Louis news, a Bosnian man was beat to death with hammers by a group of young men, 4 of 5 which are black. The city police are claiming they are trying to figure out the motive, but it was most certainly a planned attack on a random person (who happens to be white). I would bet everything I own that they were saying "This is for Mike Brown" as they beat him to death. Of course, the media will ignore that part if the police ever comment on motive.
A little like the media ignored what I call the "EBT Bombers". Last week two St. Louis men were arrested in a sting to buy pipe bombs. They were planning on bombing the Arch and killing a couple of police officials (related to Ferguson unrest). So, they bought a gun using their welfare EBT card and tried to buy the pipe bombs using an EBT card also. The awesomely stupid part of the story is that when they were buying the pipe bomb from the federal agent, they wanted to buy more but that they couldn't until their baby's momma's EBT rolled over again.
So, just so you guys know (in case you already didn't), the media will never tell you the whole story related to Ferguson. The next day after the "EBT Bombers" story broke, I asked several of my relatives if they heard the story. I believe most read something about it, but NONE knew about the part where they tried to but weapons with an EBT card. They were shocked. I wasn't, the local media walks on egg shells when it comes to reporting negative things about blacks.
Both Fox and Daily caller ran that story, but you had to read most of both articles to discover how they intended to pay for their misdeeds.
Swatter's story is poetic and sums up all the problems we've been discussing. Is there any plan anywhere in the country to end welfare dependence? The last time I heard it discussed seriously Clinton was president.
Quote from: Gusington on December 03, 2014, 07:12:57 PM
Swatter's story is poetic and sums up all the problems we've been discussing. Is there any plan anywhere in the country to end welfare dependence? The last time I heard it discussed seriously Clinton was president.
Nope.
The plan back then wasn't too bad. In the current economy, however, we'd simply be kicking people off the dole into the cold. The circumstances will have to be right to make this a priority and be able to make it work.
It's institutionalized now...waiting longer will only cement the problem more.
Quote from: Staggerwing on December 03, 2014, 06:44:49 PM
The Media are no more a bunch of morons than the folks at McDonalds who create the menu items are morons. They just have no shame. Mainstream news is now a consumer product. If it sells then it ships, end of story.
You want fries with that?
Good point, but my point is they're purposefully doing what is NOT right.
Case in point, this idiot that got himself choked to death in NYC. The morons are out protesting and shutting down the Westside Highway in Manhattan, causing gridlock for miles and miles, demanding 'justice.' Local news reported how protesters were 'seeking justice' because the police 'killed an unarmed African-American man' (their words exactly).
They completely failed to mention that this guy had been arrested 31 times previously. Thirty. Freakin'. One. Times. He knew the drill. You don't fight the cops, dammit. And the media failed to mention anything about why the cops were trying to subdue him. Just that they killed him. So it sounds as if the cops just chose some innocent black guy off the street and decided to kill him for the hell of it.
Opie and Jim's Sirius XM radio show are talking about this at length right now, since they're in Manhattan. On top of Ferguson, the media's handling of this is reprehensible and, in my opinion, borderline criminal.
On another note, I just saw this story that someone posted to FB. I hadn't heard of it and am frankly surprised the media is reporting a police officer in a positive light given the sh!tstorm of the last few mis-reported events.
Well worth a few minutes of your time to check out the video below about Officer Jeremy Henwood. He was a cop in San Diego and a Veteran Marine, having just returned home from two tours, only to be shot in the head in a parking lot outside a burger place, minutes after performing an act of kindness to a young man.
They failed to mention who shot this officer (Dejon Marquee White). The guy that killed him wasn't a criminal and didn't have a criminal history, but he left a 2-page suicide note behind and apparently wanted 'suicide by cop.' He got his wish, because the police shot him shortly after he killed Officer Henwood.
What a f$ckin' world.
Looks like the kid he bought food for will have a positive view of cops...frankly something the black community could use more of.
Quote from: Staggerwing on December 03, 2014, 06:44:49 PM
The Media are no more a bunch of morons than the folks at McDonalds who create the menu items are morons. They just have no shame. Mainstream news is now a consumer product. If it sells then it ships, end of story.
You want fries with that?
Someone was saying upthread that we probably just haven't evolved far enough to do any better.
But this
is evolution in action: whatever instinctive behaviors get food and make more babies, gets promoted, and the more efficiently gets promoted more. If that doesn't happen, under current circumstances, to result in what rational thinkers might regard as cultural progress, too bad.
I don't mean that this is a racial problem, by the way. It's a socio-cultural problem (which has its own strong evolutionary ripples) feeding on biological instincts of our species. It has nothing at all to do with ethics (despite cries for 'justice' -- that's just people saying whatever they think or feel will get the most effect under the circumstances, leeching on any actually established beliefs about justice), and little to do with rational behavior except in the most amorally pragmatic way: if it appeals to such-n-such instincts more effectively, then sell it, to get airtime for the people who pay our bills (the sponsors).
Whatever produces more power for the producer, that will be the temptation to act -- or to abuse if the action also happens to be correct and/or ethically just -- or to irrationally submit to non-rational pressures about. "Burn the b**** down!" etc.
Evolution is easy; it happens whether we want it to or not. Rationally seeking to fulfill fair-togetherness between persons (dikaiosunê in Greek) -- that's hard.
One is only natural. The other is quite literally the most fundamental and highest possible
magic.
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on December 04, 2014, 08:22:51 AM
Quote from: Staggerwing on December 03, 2014, 06:44:49 PM
The Media are no more a bunch of morons than the folks at McDonalds who create the menu items are morons. They just have no shame. Mainstream news is now a consumer product. If it sells then it ships, end of story.
You want fries with that?
Good point, but my point is they're purposefully doing what is NOT right.
Case in point, this idiot that got himself choked to death in NYC. The morons are out protesting and shutting down the Westside Highway in Manhattan, causing gridlock for miles and miles, demanding 'justice.' Local news reported how protesters were 'seeking justice' because the police 'killed an unarmed African-American man' (their words exactly).
They completely failed to mention that this guy had been arrested 31 times previously. Thirty. Freakin'. One. Times. He knew the drill. You don't fight the cops, dammit. And the media failed to mention anything about why the cops were trying to subdue him. Just that they killed him. So it sounds as if the cops just chose some innocent black guy off the street and decided to kill him for the hell of it.
Opie and Jim's Sirius XM radio show are talking about this at length right now, since they're in Manhattan. On top of Ferguson, the media's handling of this is reprehensible and, in my opinion, borderline criminal.
Disagree in the Garner case. Yes, Garner had been arressted 31 times previously for selling cigarettes without the huge NYC taxes. Yes, he was selling cigarettes illegally again on the street. But if you look at the story I link to, and view the video, Garner did not resist arrest or threaten the officer. The officer used a choke hold - which is banned by the NYC Police Department. Garner dies.
http://thefederalist.com/2014/12/03/hands-up-dont-choke-eric-garner-was-murdered-by-police-for-no-reason/
The Grand Jury not providing an Manslaughter inditement is inexplicable to me. The degree of force used by the cop, the type of force used, and the lack of provocation to use deadly force were all uncalled for both by the suspect and the crime itself.
The Garner case will get a Federal inditement and probably a conviction. Regretfully, US Attorney General Eric Holder has been so incompetent, so willing to overlook wrongdoing by the Federal Government (gun running & IRS), and such a race baiter (hinting Federal charges against George Zimmerman and in the St. Louis case) that his taking action here will be looked at through the lens of Holder's previous misdeeds. But any competent US Attorney General would have an investigation and almost certainly bring a case in the Garner death.
To me, the inability of Eric Holder to differentiate between these three cases and act forcefully only when it is clear that Federal intervention is necessary - is yet another reason to dislike the guy.
But - look at the Garner video for yourself. Many legal analysts who thought that Officer Wilson should not have been indited think that Garner's killer should have been indited.
National Review (quite right wing) discussion of the case. It really strains to find an explantion of why there was no inditement for Manslaughter.
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/393933/staten-island-decision-andrew-c-mccarthy
Quote from: airboy on December 04, 2014, 10:11:43 AM
Disagree in the Garner case. Yes, Garner had been arressted 31 times previously for selling cigarettes without the huge NYC taxes. Yes, he was selling cigarettes illegally again on the street. But if you look at the story I link to, and view the video, Garner did not resist arrest or threaten the officer. The officer used a choke hold - which is banned by the NYC Police Department. Garner dies.
http://thefederalist.com/2014/12/03/hands-up-dont-choke-eric-garner-was-murdered-by-police-for-no-reason/
I admit I was not aware of that, airboy. Thanks for posting it and shedding further light on this.
Though, regardless of whether or not you are guilty of something, fighting the cops or resisting them - again, even if you are innocent - is a dumb choice to make. You do what they say, say 'yes sir' or 'no sir,' and don't resist. Period. Had he willingly allowed the officers to cuff him, he might be alive right now. You don't let your emotions get the better of you when dealing with cops. Mr. Garner should have been aware of that given the length of his rap sheet.
From the video, it's pretty clear that he
did resist two officer's attempts to handcuff him, so I'm not sure why you're saying he did not resist arrest. (Perhaps I'm not perceiving it right, but that's the way it looks to me.) Technically, if you refuse to comply, even for a second, you're resisting arrest. (I'm saying this based on things I learned 24 years ago in Criminal Justice, so I could be wrong about Missouri law regarding this.) I don't like that the one officer immediately put him into a chokehold - I think he escalated the situation very quickly for no reason and some level/calm heads on both sides might have brought this to a less violent end.
Regardless, and I know it's not a very popular sentiment, but if you don't commit crimes in the first place, you're not going to get the attention of police. They don't just show up out of the blue - someone had to have called them to deal with Mr. Garner, correct? Or is that not right?
Some people may not think it is that simple, but for me it does boil down to obeying the law, and not breaking it. Then you don't come into contact with cops, and you don't get shot or strangled to death when you don't comply with their orders.
I am not saying they both deserved to die - it's terrible they did, but they made choices to get where things went. The cops in Garner's case I think have more culpability in his death than the officer in Ferguson, but again, it boils down to not running afoul of the law, regardless of the situation.
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on December 04, 2014, 10:38:50 AM
Quote from: airboy on December 04, 2014, 10:11:43 AM
Disagree in the Garner case. Yes, Garner had been arressted 31 times previously for selling cigarettes without the huge NYC taxes. Yes, he was selling cigarettes illegally again on the street. But if you look at the story I link to, and view the video, Garner did not resist arrest or threaten the officer. The officer used a choke hold - which is banned by the NYC Police Department. Garner dies.
http://thefederalist.com/2014/12/03/hands-up-dont-choke-eric-garner-was-murdered-by-police-for-no-reason/
I admit I was not aware of that, airboy. Thanks for posting it and shedding further light on this.
Though, regardless of whether or not you are guilty of something, fighting the cops or resisting them - again, even if you are innocent - is a dumb choice to make. You do what they say, say 'yes sir' or 'no sir,' and don't resist. Period. Had he willingly allowed the officers to cuff him, he might be alive right now. You don't let your emotions get the better of you when dealing with cops. Mr. Garner should have been aware of that given the length of his rap sheet.
From the video, it's pretty clear that he did resist two officer's attempts to handcuff him, so I'm not sure why you're saying he did not resist arrest. (Perhaps I'm not perceiving it right, but that's the way it looks to me.) Technically, if you refuse to comply, even for a second, you're resisting arrest. (I'm saying this based on things I learned 24 years ago in Criminal Justice, so I could be wrong about Missouri law regarding this.) I don't like that the one officer immediately put him into a chokehold - I think he escalated the situation very quickly for no reason and some level/calm heads on both sides might have brought this to a less violent end.
Regardless, and I know it's not a very popular sentiment, but if you don't commit crimes in the first place, you're not going to get the attention of police. They don't just show up out of the blue - someone had to have called them to deal with Mr. Garner, correct? Or is that not right?
Some people may not think it is that simple, but for me it does boil down to obeying the law, and not breaking it. Then you don't come into contact with cops, and you don't get shot or strangled to death when you don't comply with their orders.
I am not saying they both deserved to die - it's terrible they did, but they made choices to get where things went. The cops in Garner's case I think have more culpability in his death than the officer in Ferguson, but again, it boils down to not running afoul of the law, regardless of the situation.
I agree with you that not cooperating with the police is dumb. Garner waved his hands around trying to avoid getting cuffed, but he did not assault or threaten the officers.
If you are doing crime, or hanging around criminals, the odds of very bad things happening to you greatly increase. Make bad choices and you suffer the consequences.
I got pulled when I was young twice under "suspicious " circumstances. Once when weaving at 1:00am (I was coming off a double shift and was exhausted and heading home to sleep) and once in a 1968 Pontiac Catalina with 7 people in the car with a burned out tail light. In both cases, I was polite and cooperative and did not even get a ticket. O yeah, I also talked my self out of getting arrested for shooting off fireworks in a State where they are illegal. Again, really polite and no serious trouble (and my Dad thought all of these situations were funny - especially the fireworks one).
But given all of this, I do not understand a failure to indite in the Garner case for anything. I think that the Feds will file charges.
+1 with Airboy.
The talking heads last night predicted a rather unfortunate future.
There sees to be no rational explanation as to why the officer wasn't charged in this case. The circumstances were about as petty as they come - the criminal was selling cigarillos for a dollar. That's what he was busted for.
Setting aside whether sending three officers to bust up such a nefarious crime ring is a good use of resources, a lethal choke hold was not warranted.
What's worse is the fact that, due to a prohibition on double jeopardy, the only recourse is to retry him on civil rights charges. Whatever else happened in this case it clearly was not a racially-motivated incident. By attempting to charge him as such it will inject race into an unfortunate incident which had none.
The narrative in the media is then likely to become one of racially charged attacks on a minority when, in reality, 99.9% of cops are good and are attempting to help the community (as Banzai's post above illustrates).
None of this is going to help cool things off. It is, in fact, a sad state of affairs that may see further problems ahead. :(
Quote from: airboy on December 04, 2014, 10:51:24 AM
But given all of this, I do not understand a failure to indite in the Garner case for anything. I think that the Feds will file charges.
Given this fact, I am inclined to agree with you. Once the guy was on the ground there's no reason to keep the chokehold up.
One thing more I will interject: a lot of police get EMT training. I was a paramedic for years, so I speak from experience - when you deal with someone that might need medical help, the first thing we were taught were ABCs - Airway being the first and most important. The first thing you do is talk to them and see if they can respond/talk. If they can talk, they have a valid airway and can breathe, and you move on in your assessment. When Garner was saying "I can't breathe," he could breathe. You can't talk when your airway is closed off.
I'm not making an excuse for the cop - just saying,
if these cops had EMT training and heard Garner saying he couldn't breathe, they were probably thinking 'whatever, I can hear you talking, you're fine,' and that might have been a reason why they maintained the chokehold/pressure.
Federal civil rights charges are HARD to stick. You have to prove that the victim's civil rights were knowingly - and intentionally - violated. It's not enough to say that someone was deprived of their civil rights, but that the goal of the police action was designed with the purpose of depriving the victim of his civil rights.
That's going to be near-impossible to prove in Ferguson.
It might be easier in the NYC case, but even there the burden of proof is pretty high.
A very interesting, and quite frankly hard-to-argue-with, perspective on the NYC ruling
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/12/what-if-eric-garner-had-been-white/383420/
Quote from: bayonetbrant on December 04, 2014, 11:34:16 AM
A very interesting, and quite frankly hard-to-argue-with, perspective on the NYC ruling
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/12/what-if-eric-garner-had-been-white/383420/
I'm not sure I agree - cigarette taxes are a low priority to, say, the 4th amendment violations taking place by the NSA, along with violations on separation of powers. And then there's the debilitating and growing levels of national debt.
Should I go on?
There are *much* bigger fish to fry right now than the unjustified death of some guy hustling cigarillos. In all likelihood - especially given the yawning treatment of unjustly murdered white victims (have there been any reports recently? We wouldn't know - it doesn't make the news.) I'd say we'd have never heard of this guy and life would move on for everyone outside his immediate family.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on December 04, 2014, 11:28:33 AM
Federal civil rights charges are HARD to stick. You have to prove that the victim's civil rights were knowingly - and intentionally - violated. It's not enough to say that someone was deprived of their civil rights, but that the goal of the police action was designed with the purpose of depriving the victim of his civil rights.
I agree.
And that's the problem.
Because there is likely to be no civil rights violation proved (proven? I have trouble with the conjugation here.) in NYC, the black community will have their hopes raised (by filing the charges) only to see them dashed by an "unjust" system which found them unfounded (sorry for the double whatevz).
It does not bode well.
Quote from: LongBlade on December 04, 2014, 12:20:36 PM
In all likelihood - especially given the yawning treatment of unjustly murdered white victims (have there been any reports recently? We wouldn't know - it doesn't make the news.)
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/2-men-plotted-kill-ferguson-officials-bomb-arch-reports-article-1.2025860
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/12/03/where-outrage-st-louis-bosnian-community-sees-hammer-murder-as-hate-crime/
The mainstream media reaction to both (or actually, the lack thereof) is astounding and maddening.
Kill whitey!
Oh, boy. This isn't good.
QuoteCleveland police officers use guns, Tasers, pepper spray and their fists either unnecessarily or in retaliation, while using excessive force on those "who are mentally ill or in crisis," the Justice Department announced Thursday.
As a result of this "pattern ... of unreasonable and unnecessary use of force," the city and Justice Department have signed an agreement "to develop a court-enforceable consent decree that will include a requirement for an independent monitor who will oversee and ensure necessary reforms."
The results of the federal review come as the Cleveland Division of Police is under fire for the November fatal shooting of 12-year-old Tamir Rice. The incident sparked outrage in an era when the Michael Brown shooting and similar situations have put police use of force under a microscope, though Chief Calvin Williams has defended the shooting, saying Rice reached for an air pistol that was "indistinguishable from a real firearm."
source: http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/04/us/cleveland-justice-department-police-excessive-force/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
Quote from: bayonetbrant on December 04, 2014, 11:34:16 AM
A very interesting, and quite frankly hard-to-argue-with, perspective on the NYC ruling
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/12/what-if-eric-garner-had-been-white/383420/
Hard to argue with? Its a hypothetical drawing on liberal prejudices about Fox News and the Tea Party. As noted and ignored in the article, Fox News commentators roundly wondered why an indictment was not handed down in the Garner case. I simply saw the article as an attempt to tar those that the author disagrees with on other issues.
As far as the Garner case, I can see both sides. In the end though, the police did use excessive force. I think an indictment for some flavor of manslaughter would be justified, but whether it could be provided beyond reasonable doubt at a criminal trial is another question. I do think the "probable cause" standard for the grand jury should have been met, but I would like to hear what happened as to why they didn't.
As far as the Cleveland shooting, it is entirely and easily justified. It comes down to this: how lucky does the officer feel? When someone points what clearly looks like a firearm at an officer, if the officer doesn't use deadly force, he is rolling the dice about going home that night. He has the right to choose his own life. Having said that, the officer was new. Perhaps a more experienced officer would have preserved more options before the deadly force decision was forced. Of course, that is easy for me to say.
Can I say something? I am sick of blacks blaming everyone else but themselves for their problems. While collecting welfare. Whitey is evil and an oppressor but hey I just bought some new Nikes and aan extra pipe bomb with my girlfriend's EBT card. It makes me ill.
With that off my chest, I do think that the Garner case is different than the Brown case, mostly because the whole thing is caught on tape. And the NYPD officer was using a banned choke hold, while the Ferguson cop was defending himself.
I do feel that the pendulum is swinging the other way in regard ls to the media and the protestors...a lot of people I have talked with about this are pretty much like 'enough already.' And I agree.
Even that kid in Cleveland, that makes me see red. Sure, the cop fired wayyy too soon, but the kid was a ficke IDIOT, pointing a pellet gun that looks like a real gun at people. They call the cops, fearing their lives. The cop ices the kid. It's a damn shame a kid died, but Jesus Christ, when does personal responsibility AND common damn sense step in?
The outrage that keeps getting sparked should be aimed at the ignorants raising kids to be ignorants - focus it within, not without, you damn morons.
It takes a LOT to get me good and pissed off, but this 1-2-3 bullsh!t storm of of "we want justice!" events in reaction to stupid damn decisions made by those that are now dead...God, you just want to throttle the crap out of people and yell "WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU THINKING?"
::)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/10847838_10203081773632360_8983604455544973780_n.jpg?oh=3d795795f37254edcf7b391703d365e5&oe=54D18B8A&__gda__=1426344860_4809e063912c79ae00c1c7ce9ad2ece5)
To be fair, I wasn't commenting on welfare in general. The media not reporting things that are inconvenient to their narrative is just a pet peeve of mine.
In St. Louis, I can tell you there was intense institutional racism for most of the 20th century. I have studied in the archives of the history museum in downtown St. Louis and the degree of the racism was hard for me to accept. Just going back to my parent's generation, they did not look kindly on the black communities, which by his generation were extremely poor and crime ridden. Present day things have changed with institutional racism almost completely abolished. Unfortunately, for reasons that I have mentioned earlier, black communities are collapsing and segregation is increasing overall.
There are reasons to protest, unfortunately they are not protesting them. Its just politically correct and convenient to protest police brutality. As I said, nothing will change. The out-of -town professional protestors aren't going to help anyone around here. If anything, white resentment is building up and their ears are closing.
Quote from: Gusington on December 04, 2014, 08:11:18 PMCan I say something? I am sick of blacks blaming everyone else but themselves for their problems. While collecting welfare. Whitey is evil and an oppressor but hey I just bought some new Nikes and aan extra pipe bomb with my girlfriend's EBT card. It makes me ill.
Let's just be careful how wide we wield the brush. :-\ There are a lot of people you just roped into that statement that, honestly, don't belong there. I understand the sentiment, given the current stupidity we're seeing in Ferguson, but broad generalizations aren't going to advance the conversation toward any sort of resolution.
I think a certain amount of frustration and push back is going to happen. America has had generations of social change, social engineering, outreach, affirmative action, school programs, work programs and so on. hell, I even hear we have a black President now. and the problem is that when shit hits the fan its always someone elses fault and those people are white America. the Black community at large needs to get its collective shit together.
I hate when this happens but I totally agree with Star. Nigeria please indeed.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on December 04, 2014, 08:25:56 PM
::)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/10847838_10203081773632360_8983604455544973780_n.jpg?oh=3d795795f37254edcf7b391703d365e5&oe=54D18B8A&__gda__=1426344860_4809e063912c79ae00c1c7ce9ad2ece5)
As a comparison per capita whites probably outnumber blacks 3:1 so if we put those number in context they're probably close to 1:1 per capita.
Probably.
Simple numbers are rarely simple. We also need to determine the underlying causes of those stats. The overwhelming majority are likely to be justified. What we're looking for is the aberrations - where a killing by law enforcement is not warranted.
Those cases, I suspect, will be few and far between. Even so, patterns may yet emerge.
It is there we want to dig.
Quote from: Swatter on December 04, 2014, 08:26:42 PM
There are reasons to protest, unfortunately they are not protesting them. Its just politically correct and convenient to protest police brutality.
Sometimes there are even reasons to protest police brutality! -- but Ferguson wasn't one of them. (Not sure about the cigarette guy in New York.) And protest does not license looting etc. Nor do legitimate grievances with occasional police oppression excuse unfair assessments of physical evidence and the (somewhat folk anthropological) complexities of witnesses.
I love my liberal friends and family
so much (most are conservative), I'm not even kidding, I would have gladly married one; but sometimes I have to forcibly remind myself they say what they say because they really do care about justice for oppression even when they aren't thinking out the implications of what they're saying. :-\
The black community is in desperate need of strong leadership. It needs to stop idolizing race baiting hustlers like Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson and our very own President, and start listening to the sage advice of men like Dr. Ben Carson and Congressman Allen West. These leaders, and others like them, want to teach self-reliance, independence, and success through hard work. These men understand the key principles that made America thrive and believe that those same principles apply to African Americans. The only thing keeping African Americans down is other African Americans who continue to preach a victim mentality which is based upon dependence of government aid and assistance. It does not help that there is an ever increasing number of white, affluent, over-educated and under-skilled individuals who also propagate the victim mentality on behalf of minority communities.
Meanwhile, it is shocking how people will rally around a cause and completely be wilfully ignorant of the actual facts. How did this whole "hands up, don't shoot" movement start? It is completely ignorant of the actual events of the shooting. Not a single credible witness testified that Michael Brown had his hands up at any point in the confrontation. Yet, there are congressmen, on the floor of the Capital repeating this sound bite and raising their hands in solidarity. It is blind to actual fact and merely spreads a notion of "justice" that flies in the face of the truth. A very dangerous trend.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on December 05, 2014, 10:24:19 AMIt does not help that there is an ever increasing number of white, affluent, over-educated and under-skilled individuals are also propagate the victim mentality on behalf of minority communities.
generally I like John Stewarts program and comedy but hes been a prime example of your comment during this whole debacle.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on December 05, 2014, 10:24:19 AM
The black community is in desperate need of strong leadership. It needs to stop idolizing race baiting hustlers like Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson and our very own President, and start listening to the sage advice of men like Dr. Ben Carson and Congressman Allen West. These leaders, and others like them, want to teach self-reliance, independence, and success through hard work. These men understand the key principles that made America thrive and believe that those same principles apply to African Americans. The only thing keeping African Americans down is other African Americans who continue to preach a victim mentality which is based upon dependence of government aid and assistance. It does not help that there is an ever increasing number of white, affluent, over-educated and under-skilled individuals who also propagate the victim mentality on behalf of minority communities.
Well stated JH.
+1.
Quote
Meanwhile, it is shocking how people will rally around a cause and completely be wilfully ignorant of the actual facts. How did this whole "hands up, don't shoot" movement start? It is completely ignorant of the actual events of the shooting. Not a single credible witness testified that Michael Brown had his hands up at any point in the confrontation. Yet, there are congressmen, on the floor of the Capital repeating this sound bite and raising their hands in solidarity. It is blind to actual fact and merely spreads a notion of "justice" that flies in the face of the truth. A very dangerous trend.
Between the race hustlers and the media outright twisting the facts to their own purposes from the start, such nonsense has propagated. I would blame the latter for the biggest part of the blame.
Parenting pro-tip: if you bring your baby to a protest which has even a distant chance of going violent, and your baby is scarred by the subsequent tear gas, you may be sure to get national attention and sympathy for your parenting skills.
Because clearly the police intended to scar your baby. It isn't your fault, or the fault of the crowd you were hanging around.
Jason and JH's posts give me faith in humanity again. Great posts and more eloquent than my angry post a page back.
This is an excellent article worth a quick read.
http://thefederalist.com/2014/12/04/eric-garner-and-omnipresent-police-power/ (http://thefederalist.com/2014/12/04/eric-garner-and-omnipresent-police-power/)
Quote from: Steelgrave on December 06, 2014, 06:08:04 PM
This is an excellent article worth a quick read.
http://thefederalist.com/2014/12/04/eric-garner-and-omnipresent-police-power/ (http://thefederalist.com/2014/12/04/eric-garner-and-omnipresent-police-power/)
Good article. O0
Yeah, I also headslap when I hear my liberal friends complaining (as should be sometimes complained about) police corruption but then also wanting to increase governmental power and responsibility by drafting more laws to be enforced.
My only point of contention about the article, which I generally agree with, is that I have gotten the impression that a police squad weren't called in just to arrest (again) a guy disobeying the laws enacted by a hyper-liberal government (ironic problem though that is): they appear to have been called in due to some kind of violence going on which Eric Garner had been involved in. "All I was doing was breaking up a fight!" etc.
Sometime I want to read a breakdown of the evidential case there, maybe two or three different breakdowns.
QuoteThe St. Louis police chief has asked for the FBI's help investigating what he believes was a hate crime attack against a woman in the same Bosnian neighborhood where a man was beaten to death days earlier by hammer-wielding teens, and where assaults have spiked dramatically in recent months.
The 26-year-old Bosnian-American woman told police she was stopped in her car by three African-American teens early Friday morning in the city's Bevo Mill section, where tens of thousands of Bosnians settled following the civil war in the former Yugoslavia 20 years ago. The incident occurred just blocks from where Zemir Begic, a 32-year-old Bosnian-American, was beaten to death by teenagers with hammers a week earlier.
source: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/12/09/fbi-called-to-investigate-whether-attack-on-bosnian-woman-hate-crime/
Something I thought of yesterday...it's interesting that white power hate groups aren't taking to the streets in Ferguson to 'protect' people and/or further their own agenda and get press coverage. Either that or the media is totally ignoring them if they are, which wouldn't surprise me at all.
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on December 09, 2014, 11:04:30 AM
Something I thought of yesterday...it's interesting that white power hate groups aren't taking to the streets in Ferguson to 'protect' people and/or further their own agenda and get press coverage. Either that or the media is totally ignoring them if they are, which wouldn't surprise me at all.
They've all been infiltrated by the FBI, which in turn, has no interest in the New Black Panthers or the Nation of Islam.
^ Another conspiracy that's just :crazy2: enough to be true...
Haven't seen any media coverage of any white supremicist groups in a long time.
I feel pretty confident that if KKKesque groups were even distantly feasibly operating in Ferguson (et al), the media would be all over that like white on rice.
Even if they had to invent what the groups were doing there. The slightest excuse would be sufficient, especially since any speculations would be plausible.
Quote from: Gusington on December 09, 2014, 11:59:08 AM
Haven't seen any media coverage of any white supremicist groups in a long time.
there was some news a bit back about the kkk opening up membership to Jews and Blacks. ::)
That reminds me of the Dave Chapelle skit on the blind black kkk member.
Quote from: JasonPratt on December 09, 2014, 12:12:38 PM
I feel pretty confident that if KKKesque groups were even distantly feasibly operating in Ferguson (et al), the media would be all over that like white on rice.
Even if they had to invent what the groups were doing there. The slightest excuse would be sufficient, especially since any speculations would be plausible.
Yep. The media would kill for such sensationalist opportunities. Hell.. they already have to go out of their way to push any cry of racism into the national news, often without any evidence of that being the case.
Well, here we go again. Yet another black man shot to death by a white racist cop, down the road in Memphis last night. The black man was just minding his own business planting a knife into the head of a Jewish convenience store clerk when the cop came along and for no good reason shot him. The shaky cell phone video even shows the black man throwing up his hands for a moment before lunging at the cop: don't shoot!
I wonder if the national media cycle is tired of this story yet. :buck2:
Until the race-baiters get tired of it, or the media is held accountable for their withholding of information to cause tension, rioting, and out and out violence in their viewing areas, no. No, they never will.
Part of me wishes someone directly affected by this Ferguson violence nonsense would sue the media for instigating this crap. I know, it would be nearly impossible to prove, but the issue I have is that you see this kind of complaining EVERYWHERE about the media. Talk about a dog that needs to be put down.
Sounds like it could be a Grisham novel, actually.
There's jews in Memphis? Who knew...
The media is turning into a rabid dog that needs a leash. It's becoming National Enquirer-levels of ridiculous.
Quote from: Gusington on December 10, 2014, 10:49:27 AM
There's jews in Memphis? Who knew...
I was surprised then I realized all those musicians need agents. 8)
I wonder if we could get some good lean pastrami there. Memphis plus kosher should equal delicious but you never know.
We could start a kosher bacon and bbq lobby.
Meanwhile, something heartwarming in Alabama...
A grandma tries to shoplift five eggs to feed her grandchildren.
The cop who arrives takes pity on her and buys a dozen eggs for her. Then he sends her on her way with the caution not to shoplift again.
QuoteShe was desperate and went to the Dollar General store with $1.25. She was 50 cents short for the eggs and stuffed five eggs into her pocket, the Al.com report said.
"Of course when I put them in my jacket pocket they broke," she told the paper. "I'm not a good thief at all."
Stacy was the first cop at the scene and talked with the store.
"You can't let kids go hungry. I ran inside, bought the eggs for her and walked out and handed her the eggs," Stacy said. "She tried to give me all the money she had on her which was $1.25. I told her to keep it. I don't want it. The way she can repay me is to never do this [shoplift] again."
source: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/12/10/alabama-cop-buys-shoplifting-grandmother-dozen-eggs-and-video-goes-viral/?intcmp=latestnews C:-)
Kudos to officer William Stacy! C:-)
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on December 10, 2014, 01:51:56 PM
We could start a kosher bacon and bbq lobby.
Considering how heavily Memphis is into BBQ, I would not be at all surprised to find kosher variants! (BBQ after all is only a process; you can barbeque chicken or beef, too.) On the other hand, I can't imagine actually going to the main competition(s) would be kosher, and might be nauseating.
Star's joke about the musical agents is, as far as I recall, quite accurate! ;D
Most of the synagogues (with Google map listings; there are 14 in the metro yellow pages) are on the east side of the metro area, near Germantown (perhaps not incidentally); but Gilgal Temple is right downtown.
Temple Israel
www.timemphis.org - (901) 761-3130 - 1 review
Beth Sholom Synagogue
www.bsholom.org - (901) 683-3591 - more
Baron Hirsch Congregation
www.baronhirsch.org - (901) 683-7485 - more
Chabad Lubavitch of Tennessee
www.jewishmemphis.com - (901) 754-0404 - more
Anshei Sphard-Beth El Emeth Congregation
www.asbee.org - (901) 682-1611 - 2 reviews
Gilgal Temple
plus.google.com - (901) 572-1553 - more
Young Israel of Memphis
www.yiom.org - (901) 761-6060 - more
I'm not much conversant with the different, um, denominations (?), or which fall into Reformed, Conservative, and Orthodox, but I was curious to see a Lubavitcher synagogue in the list.
(Mousing around a bit...)
Okay, Beth Shalom is Conservative; Baron Hirsch is Orthodox (I might should have known that one); Temple Israel is Reformed (the only one in Memphis supposedly); Anshei is Orthodox (but not as important to Orthodox presence in the mid-south as BH); the Lubavitchers are, well, Orthodox-other I guess ;) (not sure how they stand among other Orthodox Jews right now). Or Chadish, not on the Google map list above, is Conservative.
(There's also a trinitarian Jewish Christian synagogue, B'rit Hadasha -- though I'm pretty sure other Jews wouldn't regard that as Jewish, and that's understandable. :) )
Iirc the oldest synagogue in the country is in Charleston SC.
I read that somewhere too, but supposedly the.oldest cemetery in the US is a Sephardic one (Portuguese) in downtown Manhattan....which is a little odd, I would think it would be in Charleston too.
Quote from: Gusington on December 10, 2014, 07:12:03 PM
I read that somewhere too, but supposedly the.oldest cemetery in the US is a Sephardic one (Portuguese) in downtown Manhattan....which is a little odd, I would think it would be in Charleston too.
http://www.sephardicstudies.org/csiap.html
QuoteThere, they and their descendants worshiped in rented space in lower Manhattan until 1730, when they turned an old grist mill into a synagogue -- the first in the American colonies. Three more sites followed before the congregation built its present home, facing Central Park, on a former duck farm
The congregation in NY is older, but the site it worships is in a newer place.
You should be a religious studies professor, 'Wing.
I shoulda been a lotta things- instead I'm just a shlemiel.
but, hey at least I have fun. :))
^^ Very nifty all, thanks! :coolsmiley:
Actually closer to home recently, in Jackson (I'm 2 hours from Memphis, 45 min from J), someone was protesting with a sign saying "Jackson is Ferguson" because a cop wasn't indicted for shooting a black man in the back while the man was running away.
Running away from having just stabbed the cop.
The black cop.
I'm trying to hope that sign was meant to be deeply ironic satire. :P But the cynical side of my mind is pretty sure it isn't.
Remember, never let the facts get in the way of a story or the chance to create an emergency.
My favorite part of all of this is how Columbia Law students can get an extension on their exams due to mental hardship of the grand jury decisions in Ferguson and New York. Apparently there are many losing faith in our justice system.
I can understand what is happening to a small degree, higher education is a stronghold of liberalism and all of the values contained within that paradigm. At the same time, (as I remember) people could still put on their thinking caps and rationally examine other points of view (if pressed). I cannot imagine the insanity going on within higher education these days if things like this are happening. There are too many professors wishing it was the 60s again.
On a related note, admissions at the University of Missouri- St. Louis are down for the winter semester, down a lot. UMSL is a few miles away from the center of the riots and looting, but smack in the middle of the depressed neighborhoods in North St. Louis County. I know the media will downplay this, but it is an early symptom of accelerated white flight.
The out of town activists simply don't understand the underlying problems in the St. Louis area. As a result they hurt those they pretend to champion.
I don't remember anyone telling me I could take time off from college when the OJ Simpson verdict came down. I want justice.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kaboodle.com%2Fhi%2Fimg%2Fb%2F0%2F0%2F2%2Fd%2FAAAAC3S2WbsAAAAAAALdxQ.jpg%3Fv%3D1226096615000&hash=054baa65356bbac9fd6e607fd74003fb2dd4dbcf)
Quote from: Gusington on December 12, 2014, 03:36:57 PM
I don't remember anyone telling me I could take time off from college when the OJ Simpson verdict came down. I want justice.
I was working.
They let us off for a week.
Dammit I missed it.
Quote from: Gusington on December 12, 2014, 05:44:17 PM
Dammit I missed it.
Yup. Might have been two. I forget since we had an expense account at
a strip club several recreational facilities. It was a rough couple of weeks.
I'm going to flip a police car over and burn my own house down in rage.
But then youll be back at the in laws. :buck2:
Quote from: Gusington on December 12, 2014, 07:04:49 PM
I'm going to flip a police car over and burn my own house down in rage.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.markborkowski.co.uk%2Fwp-content%2Friot-3.jpg&hash=9b45f1cb4f1b297bcf3476ed92b77afc83a33ef3)
Hahaha to the last two posts! :)
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That is one buff dog.
Quote from: mirth on December 12, 2014, 04:39:26 PM
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A lot of human history boils down to that. :buck2:
Awesome police dog.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on December 12, 2014, 07:17:12 PM
But then youll be back at the in laws. :buck2:
Them's the real cops
its a force field of cock block.
a null field.
Added to the already formidable blast shield of ennui :(
I happened to catch this comment from a story on Slate. The story is unrelated to the St. Louis Riots, but the commentator is a Democratic campaign worker and seems to shine some light on part of the problem....
Damn racists makes it so hard to criticize people for talking about race, but here it goes. One of my favorite stories from my last campaign occurred while folding t-shirts we were going to sell. I notice we have "African Americans for Obama", "Asians for Obama", "Women for Obama". We didn't have "White people for Obama". I jokingly said, "Hey, where's my t-shirt?" to my fellow volunteer. To which she replied, when she figured out what I meant, "That is so racist, I can't believe you would say that!!!!" We were literally folding t-shirts that were for sale to specific races of people, and I was being racist for wanting the white guy shirt. I think that kind of mentality goes right up to the top of the Democratic political machine.
Quote from: Steelgrave on December 14, 2014, 12:36:25 PM
I happened to catch this comment from a story on Slate. The story is unrelated to the St. Louis Riots, but the commentator is a Democratic campaign worker and seems to shine some light on part of the problem....
Damn racists makes it so hard to criticize people for talking about race, but here it goes. One of my favorite stories from my last campaign occurred while folding t-shirts we were going to sell. I notice we have "African Americans for Obama", "Asians for Obama", "Women for Obama". We didn't have "White people for Obama". I jokingly said, "Hey, where's my t-shirt?" to my fellow volunteer. To which she replied, when she figured out what I meant, "That is so racist, I can't believe you would say that!!!!" We were literally folding t-shirts that were for sale to specific races of people, and I was being racist for wanting the white guy shirt. I think that kind of mentality goes right up to the top of the Democratic political machine.
+1
That story is quite telling. White people are evil just for being white.
Quote from: Gusington on December 14, 2014, 06:24:26 PM
That story is quite telling. White people are evil just for being white.
Let the liberals run things long enough and we'll all be forced into reeducation camps. They already have enough educators lined up.....
Things like this are cyclical and eventually things will swing in a different direction. Hopefully I can make it 'til then before losing my mind.
Quote from: Steelgrave on December 14, 2014, 12:36:25 PM
I happened to catch this comment from a story on Slate. The story is unrelated to the St. Louis Riots, but the commentator is a Democratic campaign worker and seems to shine some light on part of the problem....
Damn racists makes it so hard to criticize people for talking about race, but here it goes. One of my favorite stories from my last campaign occurred while folding t-shirts we were going to sell. I notice we have "African Americans for Obama", "Asians for Obama", "Women for Obama". We didn't have "White people for Obama". I jokingly said, "Hey, where's my t-shirt?" to my fellow volunteer. To which she replied, when she figured out what I meant, "That is so racist, I can't believe you would say that!!!!" We were literally folding t-shirts that were for sale to specific races of people, and I was being racist for wanting the white guy shirt. I think that kind of mentality goes right up to the top of the Democratic political machine.
Do those accusing every action that they don't like by a white person of being a raciest, realize that they are diluting their message. Of the several events that they are protesting most about, none of them have been shown to have been committed by a raciest. Because racist has been used so much to mislabel people simply because they don't like what happened or they don't get their own way, it's loosing it's effect in society, I think.
I heard a comment back in the '90's, I think, that went something like, These guys think not getting the contract they want is racism. If they want to know what true racism is, go to the '60's.
Holder said we're a 'nation of cowards' because we won't have a 'national conversation' about race. But how could we, when he propels the myth of everyone wrong against a black person is racism, as we saw in Ferguson.
I remember a black friend of mine some time ago said it was impossible for anyone to be racist against a white person. Needless to say we didn't stay friends much longer after that. But if that's the opinion, we're fairly doomed.
And to add to the riot-themed music:
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on December 15, 2014, 07:28:23 AM
I remember a black friend of mine some time ago said it was impossible for anyone to be racist against a white person. Needless to say we didn't stay friends much longer after that. But if that's the opinion, we're fairly doomed....
Did you leave out the word "not" as in "I remember a black friend of mine some time ago said it was impossible for anyone [
not] to be racist against a white person...."
A good point, Greybriar. I might be misquoting the conversation (it was a long time ago), but the gist was how any other race other than Anglo cannot possibly be racist against white people. It didn't make much sense to me but I think she was trying to say that Anglos can be racists, but other races cannot be. Which was utter ignorance, IMO.
I've heard this logic before BC. Because whites are the majority and the power, it is impossible to be racist towards them...at least that's the way I think the thinking goes. Except it all goes to hell because they blanket label whites just for being white. Kinda like not letting you eat at my restaurant just because you're black.
I support and believe in equality, but in this political environment, "equality" seems to be a metaphor for "reparations", "quotas", "wealth redistribution" and equally heinous formulas which are anything but "equality". The most frustrating experience of my life has involved raising my sons to be color blind, only to see them judged by others for their "privileged" birth. The Democratic party needs to ask itself if the bottoming out support of the white middle class means that we have all suddenly donned white sheets, or perhaps is it a growing awareness that their intentions for us are nothing less than looting and creating a subservient culture in which we of European birth are all expected to forever pay for the sins of our ancestors?
I refuse.
Quote from: Steelgrave on December 15, 2014, 01:11:26 PM
I support and believe in equality, but in this political environment, "equality" seems to be a metaphor for "reparations", "quotas", "wealth redistribution" and equally heinous formulas which are anything but "equality". The most frustrating experience of my life has involved raising my sons to be color blind, only to see them judged by others for their "privileged" birth. The Democratic party needs to ask itself if the bottoming out support of the white middle class means that we have all suddenly donned white sheets, or perhaps is it a growing awareness that their intentions for us are nothing less than looting and creating a subservient culture in which we of European birth are all expected to forever pay for the sins of our ancestors?
I refuse.
I thought the reparations idea got shot down as ridiculous a while back. I remember Ice Cube's Barbershop movie (2002) had a great skit skewering that topic, and it's made me laugh ever since.
The subject is still being kicked around between various politicians, interest groups and even the Justice Dept. I read an article about the very thing on RealClearPolitics within the last year, although I didn't keep it.
I'm not paying sh*t in reparations if they ever come around since 1/3 of my money that I earn by actually going to work everyday is already redistributed and my family didn't arrive in the US until around 1910.
I need reparations.
Not sure about what yet, but I wanted to get my marker in.
Hel, I wasn't even born in the US. They got nuthin' on me that dates before 1966 and even then how much repression and exploitation can a three-year old kid commit anyway?
My great-great-great grandfather came here from Ireland with his young wife and baby son in 1860 and immediately joined the Union Army. And immediately after that was wounded at First Bull Run and died from his wounds.
'Murica owes my family rep'rations!
^Wow that is a raw deal.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/1966931_804631472937152_1160662534034689993_n.jpg?oh=e63a81474a616c4e4ce54a07817e2927&oe=5540D163&__gda__=1430289962_46d34a93e81166a3c8e1337284d18ecc)
Quote from: Steelgrave on December 14, 2014, 12:36:25 PM
I happened to catch this comment from a story on Slate. The story is unrelated to the St. Louis Riots, but the commentator is a Democratic campaign worker and seems to shine some light on part of the problem....
Damn racists makes it so hard to criticize people for talking about race, but here it goes. One of my favorite stories from my last campaign occurred while folding t-shirts we were going to sell. I notice we have "African Americans for Obama", "Asians for Obama", "Women for Obama". We didn't have "White people for Obama". I jokingly said, "Hey, where's my t-shirt?" to my fellow volunteer. To which she replied, when she figured out what I meant, "That is so racist, I can't believe you would say that!!!!" We were literally folding t-shirts that were for sale to specific races of people, and I was being racist for wanting the white guy shirt. I think that kind of mentality goes right up to the top of the Democratic political machine.
Perfect example of the hypocrisy.
I love it when black folk get in my shit about not understanding what its like to be an oppressed minority.
and they never have a response to my thought process.
which amounts to this in the short form:
Im part of a religious group that numbers less then 12 million world wide out of a population base of over 6.5 billion. my people were slaves over 2000 years before America was even discovered and the most recent trials encompassed 6 million people getting rounded up and killed. ya, your great great grandfather might have been a slave but I dont have a great great grandfather because that guy was killed in a German extermination camp.
so fuck you.
Nice comeback, Star. I can only imagine that stops most people with half a brain in their heads, in their tracks.
Also to the point - most everyone's ancestors has at one time or another over the last few millennia been slaves to another power, even Anglo-on-Anglo slavery. But Anglos are hardly the only "black oppressors" out there. Where's the black anger at the Greeks, for having African slaves back in the day? Or the Egyptians? Or the Italians? Or the...on and on.
I'm Irish. Shouldn't I hate UK people? Nope. Any suffering "my people" have suffered at their hands (which would likely be a stretch in research I think) was 150+ years ago and therefore well out of my life. I can only move forward. I wish other people would do that, too.
A couple of thoughts.
A few years back I remember seeing some kind of docudrama about a book that apparently had quite an influence on Abraham Lincoln. If I'm not mistaken it's James Riley's Narrative of the Loss of the American Brig Commerce:
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/27786655?uid=2&uid=4&sid=21104871906051
https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=-Q9FAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&output=reader&hl=en&pg=GBS.PA18
http://www.amazon.com/Authentic-Narrative-Loss-American-Commerce-ebook/dp/B00BF2YXEQ
The docudrama explained how this ship was lost off the coast of North Africa, the crew enslaved, and how horrifically treated the survivors were treated. It is almost beyond description.
----------
Way back when, I dated a German girl for a time. At some point in our many conversations I remember her explaining to me that Slavs were called so because they at some point had been slaves.
I have no idea whether this story has any merit, but I did find it interesting. I doubt it's true, but it could be one of those things that might have a grain of truth.
Or not.
I have read that same thing many times. As a jew of slavic background I feel some connection to that. Now gimme my reparations!
Quote from: Gusington on December 16, 2014, 09:18:07 AM
I have read that same thing many times. As a jew of slavic background I feel some connection to that. Now gimme my reparations!
You have far closer a claim for reparations than I. I don't know how the Potato Famine affected my family, but clearly Irish governmental incompetence caused this mass migration to America in the late 1800s, so I'm expecting my check in the mail any day, now. What do the Irish use for money, anyway? Four leaf clovers? Empty beer bottles? My own people and I don't know...
I'm pretty sure the "Slav" thing was the other way around. Sort of like the Berbers being called Berbers.
Epic retort, Star! O0
It might be even better if they insist that the Egyptians at the time must have been black because "Africans" are always black, right? SO WHO WAS ENSLAVING AND GENOCIDING WHOM BACK THEN!? ::)
My family on my mother's side (English/Irish immigrants who helped settle West TN) definitely owned slaves. :-[ Her grandfather was alive back then, so that wasn't many generations ago. The log cabin they lived in, like a lot of log cabins in this part of the country (not all for slaves of course, most date back farther than that), is buried in an equipment shed: people built on top of the log cabins until we have houses today which look like they date from around the 50s (because they do) and the owners may not even realize there's a log cabin inside the house somewhere!
I doubt my Dad's side of the family ever owned slaves -- they were immigrants from France, maybe near the Germanic border areas. ("Pratt" has linguistic connections to the English word "prattle" which must be from the pre-English Germanic language group. Amusingly, my mother's father was from a family of "Reed"s. "Reed" and "pratt" mean basically the same thing, tall stiff grass! :2funny: Thus the clacking sound of the seed pods at the top of the marsh reeds became a metaphor for jabbering on, or prattling, AND YES I GET THE IRONY IN THAT THANK YOU! ::) :)) )
Goodness, JP. I have no idea to what you're referring to. ;D
Quote from: LongBlade on December 16, 2014, 08:06:39 AM
A couple of thoughts.
A few years back I remember seeing some kind of docudrama about a book that apparently had quite an influence on Abraham Lincoln. If I'm not mistaken it's James Riley's Narrative of the Loss of the American Brig Commerce:
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/27786655?uid=2&uid=4&sid=21104871906051
https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=-Q9FAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&output=reader&hl=en&pg=GBS.PA18
http://www.amazon.com/Authentic-Narrative-Loss-American-Commerce-ebook/dp/B00BF2YXEQ
The docudrama explained how this ship was lost off the coast of North Africa, the crew enslaved, and how horrifically treated the survivors were treated. It is almost beyond description.
----------
Way back when, I dated a German girl for a time. At some point in our many conversations I remember her explaining to me that Slavs were called so because they at some point had been slaves.
I have no idea whether this story has any merit, but I did find it interesting. I doubt it's true, but it could be one of those things that might have a grain of truth.
Or not.
The Ukrainians and Russians were a big source of slaves for centuries before Peter the Great finally brought the Crimean Tatars in line. At one point there were so many Slavic rowers on Ottoman galleys (the Tatars biggest customer), that a western diplomat in Constantinople once asked if there were any left in their own country.
Moscow paid tribute to the Crimeans for years which was supposed to stop the raids, but it never quite seemed to work. When Peter captured Azov and then put an impressive fleet into that tiny sea, the Sultan was so impressed that he formally acquiesced to Peters refusal to pay any more tribute to the Khan (his vassal) in the treaty of Constantinople.
Apparently it was still being called Constantinople at that point, at least by westerners.
I know but I find it funny. :uglystupid2:
Been a long time gone, Constantinople; why did Constantinople get the works? That's nobody's business but the Tuuuurrrrrrks...
Why they changed it I'll never know. And all that.
(...and boobs are finally introduced to this thread via belly dancing to the "Istanbul not Constantinople" reference in 3... 2...)
dont be a turkey, this is to serious for boobs. ankara you see that.
Gasp
NOTHING is too serious for bewbs!
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^^ That is some impressive editing in that gif, btw! Every time I think I've figured out where the loop starts, I watch it again and decide I'm wrong.
And again. And again. And again...
I've only recently seen this, but I have to say it's a remarkably even-keeled discussion and disagreement about Ferguson (and NYC)
Plus, any time you can get commentary that intelligent out of Shaq
and Barkley in the same conversation, it can't be that bad
Wow, they really had good points. Barkleys comment at the end is very true.
That's from a few weeks ago. Barkley is The Man.
That is some of the best discussion on the issue that I've seen. Kudos to all and TNT for hosting it.
...and yet another shooting in the St Louis area. What was the kid thinking point a gun at a cop ???
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/teenager-is-fatally-shot-at-gas-station-in-berkeley/article_d45db16a-7422-5307-b81d-b45dbdc896ba.html
Quote from: steve58 on December 24, 2014, 11:42:40 AM
...and yet another shooting in the St Louis area. What was the kid thinking point a gun at a cop ???
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/teenager-is-fatally-shot-at-gas-station-in-berkeley/article_d45db16a-7422-5307-b81d-b45dbdc896ba.html
It sounds like they have good footage of the incident backing up the need for deadly force. I feel for the family but, really, what are people expecting when a police officer is faced with that situation? Especially after the NY ambush............
Here's a sound rule: Don't attack or threaten a police officer with a weapon.
It's an ideal step towards not getting shot.
I would expect that to be common sense but perhaps it needs to be repeatedly mentioned to the public in general?
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Quote from: bayonetbrant on December 24, 2014, 06:33:20 PM
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Ha!
Errr...I mean that's horribly politically incorrect.
^Almost believable!
I think everyone in St. Louis are ignoring the protestors/rioters at this point. There are always going to be police shootings to protest, because the thugs are armed and don't mind killing each other and anyone else that gets in their way. I am glad I can completely steer clear of North County 99% of the time. White Flight on fast forward.
By the way, I am tired of hearing the media using the term "mostly peaceful protest". The "protestors" are bringing homemade bombs, bricks, and bring bags of rocks in their attempted looting of another QuickTrip. The media have been nothing but enablers in this whole episode. I am glad my first amendment rights now include throwing bricks and Molotov cocktails.
Quote from: Swatter on December 26, 2014, 01:32:23 PM
By the way, I am tired of hearing the media using the term "mostly peaceful protest". The "protestors" are bringing homemade bombs, bricks, and bring bags of rocks in their attempted looting of another QuickTrip. The media have been nothing but enablers in this whole episode. I am glad my first amendment rights now include throwing bricks and Molotov cocktails.
Not everyone gets special treatment and exclusion from law enforcement when it comes to violent rioting. I suspect we wouldn't, if we were to hold up our local QuikTrip and set it ablaze.
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:2funny:
Coffee spew .. damn! ;D
A Black Panther activist has gone through some role-playing/training with the Houston PD and he came away with some empathy for officers in tough situations who use their weapons...
QuoteQuanell, who has been critical of police in Texas, as well as in Ferguson, Mo., where the shooting of an unarmed black man by a police officer last August touched off rioting around the nation, took the test with the police department in the Houston suburb of Missouri City. In four scenarios, he had to instantly decide whether to use a [paintball] gun, a Taser or hold his fire.
In another scenario, Quannel fired at a man during a routine traffic stop in which the suspect moved toward him, ignored an order to halt and reached behind his back
"I actually fired six times," Quanell recalled. "I always questioned why officers fired so many shots in these situations. After going through the training, I think it's very hard for an officer to know how many shots they fired when they are in the moment."
Quannel said he submitted to the test because he "felt it was the right thing to do."
There's some good stuff in the article: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/02/12/shoot-or-dont-shoot-police-scenarios-prove-eye-opening-for-civil-rights-leaders/
Quanell X is a grade-A certifiable asshole. So many of us here are tired of him. He's worse than Al Sharpton and the other race-baiters.
That said, I think this is the first thing I've ever read about that jackass that actually shows he has a brain in his head.
According to USA Today (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/03/03/ferguson-justice-report/24320987/), "DOJ: Ferguson PD engaged in racially biased policing"
Saw that. No surprise there (at the DOJ's "findings").
Quote from: Greybriar on March 03, 2015, 07:22:58 PM
According to USA Today (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/03/03/ferguson-justice-report/24320987/), "DOJ: Ferguson PD engaged in racially biased policing"
What the report concluded was:
The police force was significantly more white than the population.
That blacks were stopped, arrested, and convicted of more crimes than they would be as a straight proportion of the population
There were a couple of racist emails found
That is pretty much it. And Darren Wilson was found to not have violated anyone's civil rights and that there was no credible evidence that the guy he shot had his "hands up" when he was shot. So the whole basis of the riots (black guy shot in the back or with his hands up) was false - even when investigated by Eric Holder's Justice Department.
If a group is committing more crimes, then you would expect more stops, arrests & convictions. I feel terrible for the people who are law abiding in poor communities - but a lower police presence or less aggressive policing will probably hurt the law abiding poor far more than if you maintained aggressive policing of high crime neighborhoods.
How dare you use logic and cool, calm analysis to study such a hot button topic.
Quote from: airboy on March 04, 2015, 01:44:06 PM
Quote from: Greybriar on March 03, 2015, 07:22:58 PM
According to USA Today (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/03/03/ferguson-justice-report/24320987/), "DOJ: Ferguson PD engaged in racially biased policing"
What the report concluded was:
The police force was significantly more white than the population.
That blacks were stopped, arrested, and convicted of more crimes than they would be as a straight proportion of the population
There were a couple of racist emails found
That is pretty much it. And Darren Wilson was found to not have violated anyone's civil rights and that there was no credible evidence that the guy he shot had his "hands up" when he was shot. So the whole basis of the riots (black guy shot in the back or with his hands up) was false - even when investigated by Eric Holder's Justice Department.
If a group is committing more crimes, then you would expect more stops, arrests & convictions. I feel terrible for the people who are law abiding in poor communities - but a lower police presence or less aggressive policing will probably hurt the law abiding poor far more than if you maintained aggressive policing of high crime neighborhoods.
I dunno. Judge Nap says otherwise: http://video.foxnews.com/v/4093766769001/judge-napolitano-on-scathing-federal-report-on-ferguson-pd/?#sp=show-clips
I just got back from St Louis today. There was a local paper article that talked about the this based on information that was sent to the state attorney generals office.
1. There is no data on where the people that were pulled over live. Several communities that border Ferguson have large black populations and if they are getting pulled ticketed then that is making the numbers look worse.
2. Most of the arrests made as a result of being pulled over were because that person had a warrant out for them.
3. Watching a little bit of the local news, it seems that this is part of a larger power grab to have the police department disbanded and those duties taken over by the county police department.
There was one other big thing in the report. Ferguson was using fines and tickets as a major revenue source to run the city government. If you disproportionally target one race for minor offenses, and use that as a major fund raising enterprise, then it becomes a problem.
2 Police shot last night during Ferguson demonstration:
QuoteTwo officers were shot in front of the Ferguson Police Department early Thursday, authorities said, as demonstrators gathered after the city's police chief resigned in the wake of a scathing Justice Department report alleging bias in the police department and court.
A 32-year-old officer from nearby Webster Groves was shot in the face and a 41-year-old officer from St. Louis County was shot in the shoulder, St. Louis County Police Chief Jon Belmar said at a news conference. Both were taken to a hospital, where Belmar said they were conscious. He said he did not have further details about their conditions but described their injuries as "serious."
I'd link to the AP article, but it's behind a Compuserve paywall. And it's early morning and I'm
lazy sleepy to find it somewhere else. halps.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/03/12/us-usa-missouri-shooting-protest-idUSKBN0M80CJ20150312
I'm sure Eric Holder is very pleased with himself this morning.....
I wonder what statement the President will make.
Awful news. Ferguson has been bungled since the beginning and innocent cops are paying for it.
They need a curfew to settle things down.
It makes me sick to think how badly the situation has been handled. My thoughts and prayers go to those two victims last night.
The real sad thing is that neither cop was from Ferguson, but from neighboring communities.
I wonder if the DOJ will classify this as a hate crime. Nah, who am I kidding.
Still waiting to see what the President has to say.
Ah the President and Eric Holder both have made statements and tweets on the 'repugnance' of the shootings. Much better.
Quote from: Gusington on March 12, 2015, 05:08:14 PM
Ah the President and Eric Holder both have made statements and tweets on the 'repugnance' of the shootings. Much better.
I think you missed the part where their "repugnance" was felt because some shots missed.....
I lived through every day of the Carter administration and I never thought to see such ineptitude in that office ever again....but Obama has proven me wrong. And I lived through the Nixon years and thought I had seen the worst of an Imperial Presidency. Again, Obama proved me wrong. Obama and Holder expressing anything resembling sorrow over the shooting of two cops is nothing more than crocodile tears. They fanned the flames. They played a part in this and now want to proclaim that they didn't realize it was gasoline they were tossing on the fire.
You know....it's not so much Obama's reaction that I wanted to hear as much as the reaction of the police. I wonder what cops on the line think about Washington's part in all this?
My 'much better' was sarcasm FWIW.
Quote from: Gusington on March 13, 2015, 08:32:12 AM
My 'much better' was sarcasm FWIW.
I know. Don't take my calm, measured response (talk about sarcasm, ha! ) as being directed at you. I think putting Eric Holder in charge of the Justice Department would be like putting Al Capone in as Treasure Secretary, letting Slaak babysit your teenage daughters or hiring Azz to move you. He is a disgrace and has used the "Justice" department as an extension of Obama's political agenda from day one.
Oh, and I hate it when you kids make me go to the urban dictionary to look up an acronym, LOL. 8)
Says Steelie as he gives Gus a 'Dutch Rudder'.
Quote from: Centurion40 on March 13, 2015, 09:35:44 AM
Says Steelie as he gives Gus a 'Dutch Rudder'.
Ok, (a) I saw what you did there and (b) I'm damn sorry I looked it up. You just ain't right, Cen. :knuppel2:
This is news??!! ::)
Everything I know, I've learned from him:
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No. ;D
Quote from: airboy on March 05, 2015, 06:18:45 PM
There was one other big thing in the report. Ferguson was using fines and tickets as a major revenue source to run the city government. If you disproportionally target one race for minor offenses, and use that as a major fund raising enterprise, then it becomes a problem.
That a common problem in the St. Louis area that cuts across many municipalities, regardless of the racial makeup of the community. I used to live in the community of 500 residents that would hold traffic court once a month, hundreds of people would be there. The community had one major street pass through it for about half a mile. There would be almost continuous traffic stops 24/7. The local officers would peel off down the road going well over the speed limit to pull some over for expired tags or a broken tail light. I highly respect officers in general, but policing that stresses revenue generation over public safety severely tarnishes the image of all police.
Ferguson should have the County Police take over, they are much more professional (though mostly white, so I guess that's out the window). You also have to understand that even though Ferguson is 60% black, the surrounding communities are 95% black. That means your going to get a lot of people passing through town getting tickets who are black.
I have just thrown my hands up in frustration and stopped caring long ago about the lack of context Ferguson related stories receive by the media. The local media are themselves terrified to report the reality of the situation in the black communities of the area. They simply air the views or protestors and activists without filter, of course sandwiched in between the color blind reporting of the regular gun battles in the area.
Thought I hit edit.
Why is no one addressing the real problems of welfare dependence, chronic poverty and glorification of the gangster lifestyle, as well as the issues of lack of birth control and one parent families? These are the real issues facing black people. Is it somehow racist to note these things?
Quote from: Gusington on March 13, 2015, 02:37:15 PM
Why is no one addressing the real problems of welfare dependence, chronic poverty and glorification of the gangster lifestyle, as well as the issues of lack of birth control and one parent families? These are the real issues facing black people. Is it somehow racist to note these things?
Yes.
Anyone bringing up those topics gets shouted down, Gus. But you know this already. White people aren't allowed to discuss it at all, even after genuflecting before the altar of white privilege. People of color are "Uncle Tom"ed if they depart from the narrative. We've seen Charles Barkley vilified, Bill Cosby (before the rape accusations even), Condi Rice isn't black enough, before supporting Obama neither was Colin Powell (but he's ok now). You can't have honest disagreements with Obama's policies because
you're racist. You can't speak towards the root causes of the problem because only the targets of the narrative (i.e. you and I) may be affixed blame. Until
this changes within the black community,
nothing changes. It's sad, but as long as the Eric Holders and Al Sharptons call the tune,
nothing is going to change.
Well, in the words of a great warrior poet: 'f-ck that noize.'
Quote from: Gusington on March 13, 2015, 05:57:23 PM
Well, in the words of a great warrior poet: 'f-ck that noize.'
Short but eloquent. O0
Come to think about it....you probably have that phrase tatted across your shoulders.
Not enough room...
Honky!!!
Got that tattooed.
Honkysteinmeyer!
Still have some space left.
My 2 cents: anybody there complaining of a tough and unfair life down in that part should really go visit a shittier country overseas, and then come back with second thoughts on their perspective of life.
Quote from: Gusington on March 13, 2015, 02:37:15 PM
Why is no one addressing the real problems of welfare dependence, chronic poverty and glorification of the gangster lifestyle, as well as the issues of lack of birth control and one parent families? These are the real issues facing black people. Is it somehow racist to note these things?
Steelie may have a point.
Also worth noting is that a sizable chunk of money is funneled to minority communities. Democrats lay claim to the title of protector the poor, and are rewarded by loyalty at the ballot box.
We've discussed this before, but I'll restate it for convenience. Once you start subsidizing families with money, health care benefits, et al, you are going to make it very difficult for them to get off of those subsidies. That's because it will likely take far more than starting wages to offset the value of the benefits. I don't mean that as a pejorative - there can be good reasons for wanting to help poor people. But once you start you also initiate a cycle of dependence that is difficult to break.
Getting back to the politics, Democrats have a vested interest in preserving and protecting their reputation amongst the lower classes. It does not pay politically to monkey with that situation, which further complicates getting out of that cycle of dependence.
That doesn't mean that anyone who supports those policies has bad motive. They may be very well intended. But once started it's nearly impossible to stop.
Insuring access to health care for all and paying a living family wage will be a good start.
Quote from: Staggerwing on March 14, 2015, 11:39:19 AM
Insuring access to health care for all and paying a living family wage will be a good start.
There's room for debate on both of those topics.
Quote from: Steelgrave on March 12, 2015, 07:22:23 AM
I'm sure Eric Holder is very pleased with himself this morning.....
Is that stooge ever going to actually resign his position as promised?
Had enough of that jackhole during the Fast & Furious runaround bullshit he was pulling years ago. He's about three scandals past due for being tossed out on his ass.
Quote from: Nefaro on March 14, 2015, 01:56:36 PM
Quote from: Steelgrave on March 12, 2015, 07:22:23 AM
I'm sure Eric Holder is very pleased with himself this morning.....
Is that stooge ever going to actually resign his position as promised?
Had enough of that jackhole during the Fast & Furious runaround bullshit he was pulling years ago. He's about three scandals past due for being tossed out on his ass.
Any other President would have forced his resignation a long time ago, but he's been too useful a hatchet man for Obama. After all, little things like respecting the law (or law enforcement) has no place in this administration.
Great post LB. I think you hit the nail on the head on why no one addresses the dependency issues. I guess there is no escape.
What makes the dependency issues even harder to break, is that you now have multiple generations that have depended on them.
Sometimes 4-5 generations.
Quote from: Gusington on March 14, 2015, 09:34:32 PM
Sometimes 4-5 generations.
Yup. Proof positive that what we have doesn't work - at least it doesn't seem to help people pull themselves out of poverty.
Being rewarded for doing nothing insures that each successive generation in a welfare family also does nothing. A solution should have been found fifty years ago.
But if Ronald Reagan couldn't fix the problem, I don't suppose anyone else will either.
A difficult problem made more intractable by the fact that doing nothing about it benefits tens of millions of people.
Quote from: Greybriar on March 14, 2015, 11:42:01 PM
Being rewarded for doing nothing insures that each successive generation in a welfare family also does nothing. A solution should have been found fifty years ago.
But if Ronald Reagan couldn't fix the problem, I don't suppose anyone else will either.
Clinton got together later in his second term with the GOP led congress and they had some success.
I studied the issue in some depth taking an entire semester of econ on the topic. Frankly, there is no perfect solution. As you say, when you pay people to "do nothing" you'll ensure the vast majority of them will succeed at it.
Further, the more in-kind benefits you give them the more you raise the real income they need to replace the benefit.
I'm not arguing we shouldn't take care of the poor and the destitute. But I will suggest that it has been a long time since we tried to do something about the problem.
What happened to Clinton's 'workfare' programs?
Quote from: Gusington on March 15, 2015, 10:27:21 AM
What happened to Clinton's 'workfare' programs?
No simple answer. This article is from 2006 and clearly economic conditions have changed since then. If I were a betting man, I'd say we've regressed since then.
The punchline is that it worked to some degree.
http://www.economist.com/node/7226120
Quote from: Gusington on March 15, 2015, 10:27:21 AM
What happened to Clinton's 'workfare' programs?
the cynic is me says that they were probably de-funded by mostly-Republican Congress early in Bush II's first term because they were generally working :-\
Sigh.
Quote from: Staggerwing on March 14, 2015, 11:39:19 AM
Insuring access to health care for all and paying a living family wage will be a good start.
Median household income, and total welfare/transfer payments to the bottom two quartiles of US households have all grown substantially since 1979. You have to factor in the transfer payments of all sorts to see this - but it is a fact.
Problem is (as Longblade said), is how do you not subsidize poor life choices and provide disincentives to people being productive members of society? How do you differentiate between the "deserving poor" and the "undeserving poor." Incentives matter. The more you subsidize anything, the more of it you get. How you provide incentives to get people to be productive members of society while not punishing the innocent (deserving poor & children) is not easy to pull off.
Quote from: airboy on March 16, 2015, 09:20:03 AM
Quote from: Staggerwing on March 14, 2015, 11:39:19 AM
Insuring access to health care for all and paying a living family wage will be a good start.
Median household income, and total welfare/transfer payments to the bottom two quartiles of US households have all grown substantially since 1979. You have to factor in the transfer payments of all sorts to see this - but it is a fact.
And the level of poverty has not changed substantially since the Clinton reforms.
Since this thread has morphed into a discussion of poverty as well as the unrest in inner cities I suppose this is as good a place as any to post it.
QuoteVerde Point is a self-described "luxury apartment" complex with a rooftop pool and "personal wine storage" that is currently accepting public housing assistance recipients who will live there practically for free, courtesy of the taxpayers — at least until they become gainfully employed and their incomes rise. That's when the pool parties and wine tastings end and they will have to downgrade to a more middle-class abode.
The Gramercy is another luxury apartment, also in Arlington, Va., where holders of the federal vouchers formerly known as Section 8 can live, taking advantage of its "massage room and sauna" and "clubroom with bar." Also included, according to its promotional materials, are a "first-class sports club," "theater/screening room," and computer room.
"Someone will actually come and do a manicure right in your home," its promotional video says, adding that the units have "Berber carpet, GE stainless steel appliances, granite countertops." There are 20 residences at the Gramercy set aside as "affordable," and where Section 8 can be used.
source: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/03/23/government-pays-to-house-poor-in-luxury-apartments-with-pools-wine-cellars/?intcmp=latestnews
Quote from: bayonetbrant on March 15, 2015, 11:20:42 AM
Quote from: Gusington on March 15, 2015, 10:27:21 AM
What happened to Clinton's 'workfare' programs?
the cynic is me says that they were probably de-funded by mostly-Republican Congress early in Bush II's first term because they were generally working :-\
Nope - Obama and the Dem Congress when he was elected eliminated the Clinton workfare because they thought welfare was an "economic stimulus" and that more welfare = healthy economy. Can't blame either W or the Republican Congress for this one.
That would help to explain the surge in numbers of people being paid by the government.
The last couple of posts enrage me :buck2:
Worth noting: those tips apply whether the police are black or white or yellow, dawg yo. O0
(Also worth noting: Chris Rock did a pretty good job setting up to take the baton at the end of the Lethal Weapon series!)
No, no, he didn't *rob* the store - he was selling them pot! Because that's sooooooo much more legal ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
http://www.businessinsider.com/new-michael-brown-video-ferguson-raises-questions-death-2017-3
What a great guy..."entering the convenience store at 1am"...where were his parents then?
Prepping his next delivery.
Probably :/
Even if everything the documentary asserts were true, it's still going to get treated like a strong arm robbery because that is what the owner thought. Strong arm robbery or drug deal gone wrong, Brown still looks like a thug. That poor store owner had his store looted and now there were renewed protests at the store yesterday. There was lots of injustice in Ferguson- it was dished out to the business owners.
Quick update on Ferguson in case anyone is interested: Since the riots, the middle class residents of Ferguson with the means to leave have mostly left. They took a hit too as property values have dropped. Crime has also spiked since the riots along with segregation. Another BLM success story.
Ferguson
^there might be a twisted "Trump-Think"-solution to that problem ;)
The ancestors of all those thugs where brought into the country as slaves, so legally actually as a form of goods at that historical times, like slabs of steel or barrels of nails and not as legal immigrant citizens.
So the offspring -at the end of some longer twisted and very complicated US laws legal assessment argumentation- are still illegals too ....or, just sign off some executive orders :P
and so can be when committing a crime send back to Africa.
probably Liberia, which is historical the natural state for returning former slaves offspring to live long and prosper, isn't it ?
...Liberia, its great. Belive me. most prosper country over there, i've seen it. its "Yuuge". great country ^-^