...just arrived today! :D
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1175.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fr624%2FMichaelE6%2F001_2.jpg&hash=ec194326ffaf9eb4b0fdee40edad5543a7c41be5)
Unboxing article coming soon, as is a full review...and probably an AAR starring good German GrogHead forum members! O0
Lucky you! Now where's my DVG WWII Naval Battles? :knuppel2:
My Panzers are already rolling East ;D
BTW, Card #23 (StuG III) is missing... confirmed on BGG.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flinesofcommand.com%2Fimages%2FIMG_0112.JPG&hash=f4c448335536aa90ee6249d0f2133ffddf65a3b0)
PE
^ Yep, just dug through the cards...there's a 019, 022, 030, and on. I didn't realize there's a missing card. Any word from DVG on that?
Quote from: PanzersEast on June 06, 2015, 08:45:38 PM
BTW, Card #23 (StuG III) is missing... confirmed on BGG.
:(
All Made In China!
Still, I'm kicking myself for not pre-ordering. :(
CoolStuffInc. had copies on the shelf at Origins for $65 -- $60 if you used their $5 coupon. Those who paid shipping to Canada (Barth) were not amused. Bizarre policy in my mind...
Jim
NWSOnline is throwing in counter trays and a pair of D10's if you order it through them. Dunno what he's listing it for though.
^I just checked- $59 incl. shipping to my zip! :o
Needless to say I ordered right then and there. 8)
Thanks Gary! O0
Counter trays would have been nice! Though I can probably get something at Wally World or Target if need be.
Here's the Lazy link to NWS' Tiger Leader page (http://yhst-12000246778232.stores.yahoo.net/tigerleaderdvg.html) for those who have not yet purchased.
Note that the box will be opened so they can put the counter tray and dice in for shipping.
Great! I'll be anxiously awaiting your full review so that I can determine if I should pick up a copy myself or just stick with Patton's Best using the Guderian's Best mod. ;)
I finished a 3 Week Campaign of Poland ... (well really late last night). I scored a adequate victory, however I lost 2 Commanders, (one Rile Squad was mowed down), and 2 Pz I where destroyed. I was able to make an early push, however was only able to knock 2 Battalions to 1/2 strength and then had to come back to eliminate them. 1 Scout Battalion started in my Staging and and another in my Transit area costing me SO points.
If you have played any of the previous Leader series you will have no problem jumping in. I do have issues with say a Rifle Squad attacking a Tank etc.... so far I enjoyed it.
PE
I did get Thunderbolt/Apache Leader way back in the day, and now own both Phantom Leader and Hornet Leader. I've not owned or played one of DVG's 'ground' Leader series yet. I won't likely have time to lay it all out and play until a week or so from now. I'm VERY curious to see how this plays out and very excited to give it a shot.
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on June 08, 2015, 11:10:55 AM
I did get Thunderbolt/Apache Leader way back in the day, and now own both Phantom Leader and Hornet Leader. I've not owned or played one of DVG's 'ground' Leader series yet. I won't likely have time to lay it all out and play until a week or so from now. I'm VERY curious to see how this plays out and very excited to give it a shot.
I have all of the Leader Series, however with this I want to play some more to see. There are certain aspects of the game I feel house rules have to be in effect. For example the Enemy Tactical Movement roll, while a base-line for orders you will have to intervene sometimes. A MG Team attacking a Tank is pretty silly and I have modified that. Because you move "Toward the Enemy" you can roll 2 dice, did not do this and if move into same Hex "Close Combat", you can roll two dice to attack.... again, not sure I like that at all. The way certain units are handled needs to be refined..... maybe immobilizing an enemy tank until you get some punch, but not destroying it.
PE
Still waiting fer my copy >:( but just a comment.
Early war German tanks were pretty vulnerable to infantry close attacks. In fact the Pz I could probably be taken out with a heavy MG.... Are later model tanks as easy to kill with infantry/MG units this way?
Quote from: Barthheart on June 08, 2015, 11:29:45 AM
Still waiting fer my copy >:( but just a comment.
Early war German tanks were pretty vulnerable to infantry close attacks. In fact the Pz I could probably be taken out with a heavy MG.... Are later model tanks as easy to kill with infantry/MG units this way?
This is the mechanic of the game, so a Pz IV could be attacked by a MG unit and while the better tanks have a higher defense, a MG Unit could still score a hit and a dreaded Destroyed chit pull.
So let's say you are facing an enemy Rifle team (front) and your Tiger is in open ground. The Tigers Defense Armor Rating is 2. The rifle squad attacks from 1 Hex away with an attack to hit value of 5. With the modified defense of the Tiger it would take a 7 to score a hit. You roll a 10, pull a Destroyed chit and your Tiger tank is now Destroyed and removed from the campaign.... and you set in WTF disbelief.
PE
Quote from: PanzersEast on June 08, 2015, 11:42:52 AM
Quote from: Barthheart on June 08, 2015, 11:29:45 AM
Still waiting fer my copy >:( but just a comment.
Early war German tanks were pretty vulnerable to infantry close attacks. In fact the Pz I could probably be taken out with a heavy MG.... Are later model tanks as easy to kill with infantry/MG units this way?
This is the mechanic of the game, so a Pz IV could be attacked by a MG unit and while the better tanks have a higher defense, a MG Unit could still score a hit and a dreaded Destroyed chit pull.
So let's say you are facing an enemy Rifle team and your Tiger is in open ground. The Tigers Defense Armor Rating is 2. The rifle squad attacks from 1 Hex away with an attack to hit value of 5. With the modified defense of the Tiger it would take a 7 to score a hit. You roll a 10, pull a chit and your Tiger tank is now Destroyed.... and you set in WTF disbelief.
PE
Gottcha.
Quote from: Barthheart on June 08, 2015, 11:45:38 AM
Quote from: PanzersEast on June 08, 2015, 11:42:52 AM
Quote from: Barthheart on June 08, 2015, 11:29:45 AM
Still waiting fer my copy >:( but just a comment.
Early war German tanks were pretty vulnerable to infantry close attacks. In fact the Pz I could probably be taken out with a heavy MG.... Are later model tanks as easy to kill with infantry/MG units this way?
This is the mechanic of the game, so a Pz IV could be attacked by a MG unit and while the better tanks have a higher defense, a MG Unit could still score a hit and a dreaded Destroyed chit pull.
So let's say you are facing an enemy Rifle team and your Tiger is in open ground. The Tigers Defense Armor Rating is 2. The rifle squad attacks from 1 Hex away with an attack to hit value of 5. With the modified defense of the Tiger it would take a 7 to score a hit. You roll a 10, pull a chit and your Tiger tank is now Destroyed.... and you set in WTF disbelief.
PE
Gottcha.
I think there should be some modified rules here dealing with this situation... if the Infantry enter your hex or out flank you.... there could be a possible disable etc... however the game does have AT Teams so I guess we assume the Rifle Squads also have some AT capabilities? Plus a scout car destroying my Tiger means I should instead throw cheaper units at them for attrition sake :buck2:
PE
Infantry should have to take a PAATC roll before being able to close assault an AFV but then you might be playing ASL. :D
I'm going to dig the rules out later tonight to read through them.
Would it not be assumed that said rifle squad has some kind of inherent AT capability?
I imagine hitting a Tiger in open ground would be VERY easy to do for a rifle squad...but their rifles obviously won't do shite against that beast. There's always the chance of a lucky shot from an AT weapon, though.
Seems like the Tiger's defense value should be higher than 2. ???
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on June 08, 2015, 02:07:53 PM
I'm going to dig the rules out later tonight to read through them.
Would it not be assumed that said rifle squad has some kind of inherent AT capability?
I imagine hitting a Tiger in open ground would be VERY easy to do for a rifle squad...but their rifles obviously won't do shite against that beast. There's always the chance of a lucky shot from an AT weapon, though.
Seems like the Tiger's defense value should be higher than 2. ???
No where in the rules that I could find that mentions a Rifle Squad having AT capabilities. Also, there are specific AT Teams as well. A Rifle squad front facing a Tiger in the open at distance should be able to do squat, but maybe hurt the commanders feelings with some choice words. Same goes for a scout car......
PE
Hmm. Somewhat lamesauce. No questions on BGG about it either, which is interesting.
Personally I'd just assume some kind of organic AT capability; otherwise, there's no good reason to assume a bunch of riflemen armed with rifles can destroy a Tiger. That's begging for some kind of rules mod or house rule.
And in the whoooops department:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/dvgames/tiger-leader/posts/1250408
Was puzzled when my NWS order came without it...now it would seem we know why...
Best,
Jim
"Cyrano"
:/7)
My copy is in my mailbox according to Canada Post... can't wait to get home. O0
Hey, Barth, remember:
a: You're going to teach me LnL Day of Heroes.
b: I owe you a punch in the face.
Quote from: Cyrano on June 10, 2015, 12:02:42 PM
Hey, Barth, remember:
a: You're going to teach me LnL Day of Heroes.
b: I owe you a punch in the face.
And you owe me $20 USD for some namby pamby Waterloo shirt.....
Man there's a lot of stuff in this box. O0
Going to try and squeeze in a game tonight.
Waiting for my copy to arrive. Though riflemen vs tanks is abit disconcerting.
Edit: Just had an email from the shop saying they have received the game and copies will be going out shortly..yippee.
I posted this over at BGG but you guys can download it if you want to use it... options and variant by Chris Dean.
*************************************************
I added the info to a quick to print chart for easier reference and thought I would share if you want it...
Thanks Chris for the variant and options.
DOWNLOAD: Get the Reference Sheet Here (http://linesofcommand.com/files/TigerLeader_OpRules.pdf)
Cheers and Happy Hunting,
PE
Cool, thanks for this. O0
Just got my shipping notice from NWS. O0
Just arrived! Blimey the box weighs a ton! Counters seem a little on the dark side some you can barely see any detail, a touch blurred aswell. Still overall i looks awesome.
OK, so the rule say your infantry can move or attack, or take stress to attack as well.
So can enemy infantry move and attack? Or do they follow the same rules?
Quote from: Barthheart on June 12, 2015, 08:57:20 AM
OK, so the rule say your infantry can move or attack, or take stress to attack as well.
So can enemy infantry move and attack? Or do they follow the same rules?
I think enemy infantry do not follow the same rules. They are allowed to move and attack without penalty.
This applies to all enemy units
QuoteAfter you move each Enemy Unit, resolve its Attack before going on to the next Enemy Unit.
Each Enemy Unit may only Attack one German Unit each Turn. A Unit automatically targets the
closest German Unit it is allowed to Attack.
Use the Line of Sight rules as you did for the German Units.
If more than one German Unit is equally close, attack the German Unit that requires the lowest Attack die roll to Hit. If there is more than one equally close German Unit that requires the same lowest attack die roll to Hit, choose which one is Attacked.
PE
I guess but it seems to me it would make enemy infantry units a lot less lethal and maybe more balanced?
I am looking at adding a Stuka CAS variant that will also include the G model for the Eastern Front. Not sure the best cost and effect of them, however I feel CAS is needed.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flinesofcommand.com%2Ffiles%2Fju1.png&hash=63f040360ca57ce9fcfe069f6ada31e0b388e278)
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flinesofcommand.com%2Ffiles%2Fju2.png&hash=a65de2b6a5f6e87bfd9f55f7e109ffaef0829667)
I also thought about having print and cutout buildings to place on the map for a more varied approach, however the movement maybe an issue. I have yet to test it out.
Cheers,
PE
Superb idea!
I'd like to see abit more detail with regards to enemy killed\damaged..at the moment they can only be killed. Would like to see tank damage...however I've yet to play it..maybe iot wouldn't work.
Also on BGG the reviews seem "OK". Some are bemoaning the lack of variety in missions i.e it's always a battalion attack. Others a lack of difference between certain units and also the Riflemen\MG vs Tank issue. The man at NWS has released some varient rules to help with the general issues that have arisen. I do hope we get to see an expansion that takes into account players issues\concerns.
EDIT: Just read on BGG an expansion will be released with more detailed unit and commander cards. So fingers crossed some of NWS ideas are implemented as they seem very good to me. I was thinking of selling it on unpunched for a moment but after this news I'll keep hold of it until I've seen what is planned then decide.
Panzer East you need to go to the thread at BGG where you can put forward your suggestions for the expansion with this.
http://boardgamegeek.com/article/19499052#19499052 (http://boardgamegeek.com/article/19499052#19499052)
Quote from: PanzersEast on June 12, 2015, 11:20:55 AM
I am looking at adding a Stuka CAS variant that will also include the G model for the Eastern Front. Not sure the best cost and effect of them, however I feel CAS is needed.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flinesofcommand.com%2Ffiles%2Fju1.png&hash=63f040360ca57ce9fcfe069f6ada31e0b388e278)
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flinesofcommand.com%2Ffiles%2Fju2.png&hash=a65de2b6a5f6e87bfd9f55f7e109ffaef0829667)
I also thought about having print and cutout buildings to place on the map for a more varied approach, however the movement maybe an issue. I have yet to test it out.
Cheers,
PE
This sounds promising..
"We initially had every unit start with a HE (High Explosive) and AP (Armor Piercing) stat for every unit. As the playtesting went on however, and we pulled in other beta testers, they got confused and did not like having multiple attack numbers for each unit. Originally, the AT Team had very good AP attack number, and worse HE.
As Christopher said, there is an expansion coming out where the game will get more detailed, and units will have multiple attack/defense numbers for the players who want a more historically accurate game, and pushing up the difficulty.
-Kevin"
Does anyone know if there is a VASSAL mod for this game yet?
Quote from: Staggerwing on June 21, 2015, 03:33:03 PM
Does anyone know if there is a VASSAL mod for this game yet?
Not sure if one is in the works or what he would charge for it.
Quote from: GJK on June 21, 2015, 04:09:12 PM
Quote from: Staggerwing on June 21, 2015, 03:33:03 PM
Does anyone know if there is a VASSAL mod for this game yet?
Not sure if one is in the works or what he would charge for it.
Hopefully not much. I was thinking a mod for those who already have the game but not the room to play.
I think Dan has only released one VASSAL module pro bono and that was one that he outsourced to Mad Russian to make. Seeing that I'd very likely not ever purchase the full boardgame, I could probably be persuaded to spend say $15 for a pdf of the rules/charts and the VASSAL module so that I could check it out. I can't fault him for that, being smaller than the other game companies (of which are small themselves compared to non-wargame game companies).
So.... is anyone actually playing this? As it is out of the box?
I've stopped playing and am waiting to see if they put out some errata/corrections to fix what should be a fun game... but isn't right now.
I've been following Chris's, of NWS Online, variants to add more "depth" to the game but I'd like the base rules to work before I go off using variant rules.
So far the errata/corrections seem to be coming from multiple directions and are sometimes contradictory.... this is not like DVG at all. Not sure what's going on.
Plus there's already talk of, and work being done on, an expansion pack for the game.... that doesn't work right yet!?!
I love the Leader series, even U-boat Leader that most don't, but this one has been a major let down so far..... hopefully it will become playable.... :(
Barth, I'm working on a review for GH. Might do an AAR too, but DVG has told us there will be an expansion and they'd send me a copy of that too. If I do an AAR I'd probably wait for that expansion.
Have you been able to get anything better than a dismal result out of the Poland campaign? :buck2:
I haven't gotten too deeply into it...done a few minor skirmishes but not right into a full campaign. Been too busy with work these last few weeks and with other reviews and AARs. I should be able to get into it later this week though. From the things I've read, enemy infantry is a bitch.
In all honesty, after reading this:
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1401557/dvg-tiger-leader-rules-updates-updated-7142015
...I'm kind of hesitating to dive directly in until I see this updated rules PDF. I'd hate to write a review and beat it up over failings when they're taking steps to fix it.
------------------------------
Something else interesting: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1400938/some-official-errata-richard-martin
Quote1) Enemy infantry can not move and attack in the same turn
2) Enemy Infantry can only attack armor at a range of zero - "0"
3) Panzer IV Short Gun tanks get + 1 Attack vs Infantry, Artillery, Buildings and Vehicles due to the greater explosive power of the ammunition used and -1 to Attack vs Armor due to the lower armor piercing ability of the ammo.
And here's more:
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1383188/tiger-leader-beta-expansion-updated-rules-and-opti
Since it looks like they're working on putting this all into one PDF, it looks like they're fixing the things you guys have been saying are broken.
Yeah... maybe... but I've been arguing that they need to just clear up the rules as is before they start changing anything. I want to know how to play with the original design intent.
If they are so eager to "improve for free" the current rules then I just bought a beta test kit for $90 CDN!!! :tickedoff:
I'm not sure which way to go for your review. Right now I'm ticked off and would write a pretty scathingly bad review then re-write it when the "new" rules came out.
>:(
It seems that this was rushed out without significant playtesting. That could totally not be the case, of course; in that case it just means poor writing and rules management. If I didn't do reviews of their products I'd offer my writing services to DVG to help them straighten this out. Not that I'm a master, but I've had plenty of game manual writing experience! So stuff like this cuts pretty close to home. And if they were open to that, AND I did do that, I couldn't ever review their product again.
Which is exactly why I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt and hesitating to review it until I get that updated rules. Don't worry - the tumultuous ride of this game will be in my review. But if they fix what's broken, that's important to mention as well, and to show how well it fixes it.
I'm definitely going to play it some more with the rules as is so I can get where this is coming from. The rules book doesn't seem that bad, but DVG rules have sometimes been slightly off from a design perspective. Perhaps I am FAR too anal when it comes to this (besides game manuals I have a degree in tech writing and have done it for more than a decade) because I will blast bad writing and structure in a manual. I look for much more structure and, honestly, 'hand holding' when it comes to this kind of thing, because newbies need to get right in and vets need to find rules quickly.
Stay tuned, but feel free to continue venting here. I'd like to compare my eventual experiences with what you guys are feeling about this game.
I don't think the rules are written badly. It's just the execution of the rules don't make much sense in the game play.
But I'm not playing any more until the "new" rules come out then I'll give it a try. But there's no way in hell I'm paying for an expansion that corrects all this... :tickedoff:
I'm looking forward to the advanced game expansion.
I'm looking forward to a game that I can play..... :P
I feel like a character in a pulp Sci-Fi novel that thought he had gone mad only to discover that, yep, the world was tilted and that mightily.
1) Enemy infantry can not move and attack in the same turn
2) Enemy Infantry can only attack armor at a range of zero - "0"
3) Panzer IV Short Gun tanks get + 1 Attack vs Infantry, Artillery, Buildings and Vehicles due to the greater explosive power of the ammunition used and -1 to Attack vs Armor due to the lower armor piercing ability of the ammo.
Particularly 1 and 2...seriously? Wow...OK...I feel much better about my tactical ability and much worse about the QA over at DVG. I'm sure they'll update the .pdf and all that, but nothing with something so fundamental amiss should have been let out the door...especially given the size and cost of this production.
Well, back to the shelf while we await the fix...
Best,
Jim
"Cyrano"
:/7)
I finally put my finger on something about the rules that has somewhat bothered me, and that's that they follow the Sequence of Play when describing units, counters, and so forth.
Probably not that big a deal and maybe I'm too anal, but I've been thinking a methodical approach to manual writing would be better - in other words, showing each component and briefly describing what they do in the game, and then going into the game's Sequence of Play and describing how they actually affect gameplay. It's somewhat jarring to see something for the first time in the Sequence of Play instead of initially as an introduction.
Perhaps it is just me, though. Any thoughts or is this me being too analytical?
I don't know as I've ever discussed this hereabouts, but my first job with the City was as a bill drafter. This is an art as well as a science and it is, tragically, being lost in government and elsewhere. Everything from the nuances of language, precise use of diction, and, assuredly, an understanding of process bears on it. I told Vance at Origins that the rules for LnL's tactical series is as opaque as Being and Nothingness. "Boots on the Ground" simply wasn't edited...or edited well. Phil Barker, well, you all know. "Warfighter" is one of my favorite games of late but, as I observed in my earlier remarks about it, there were far too many vital rules buried inside other rules.
I am at a loss to understand why companies abandoned the modular rule-writing process used in so many golden era AH games. It clearly came from technical writing and borrowed much from good bill drafting.
This is all the more acutely so in the world of wargames and their profusion of details.
Bottom line: you ain't crazy...not in my world anyway...
Best,
Jim
"Cyrano"
:/7)
Thanks, Jim. I think my career as a technical writer and somewhat as a game manual writer came from those old AH manuals where everything was so crisply and matter-of-factly laid out, so there was very little room for interpretation or question. Not that questions or errata did not come up in those days - but things just seemed a lot cleaner.
I actually prefer rules written in Sequence of Play order. I agree that units and map need to be fully described first.
This is really disappointing to read. I have been seriously considering buying either Tiger Leader or Warfighter, but clarity of rules is an essential part of my buying decision.
Don't buy Tiger Leader.... At least not yet.
Cyrano raved so much about Warfighter that I went and ordered the whole shebang (for which I owe him a punch in the face)... So it's probably very good. Can't wait to get my copy.
Let's be pedantically correct:
You did not order a Warfighter game. I know b/c I never shipped you one ;)
You ordered a copy of "Warfighter: The Special Forces Card Game" - a completely different game that came out 10 years later....
Po-tay-to, po-tah-to :P
some folks just can't let things go... ::)
Dan could have asked...
Dan Verssen posted this at BGG:
QuoteHere's our plan in going forward with the Tank Leader series...
We are working on an update kit now. At this time, we are still tossing around ideas that will both update the game as well as retain the "Leader" feel and complexity level. The upgrade kit's exact components are not yet known, but they will include counters, cards, and rule changes.
==We will not charge for this upgrade kit==
The plan at this point is to include the upgrade kit in the next Tank Leader game for everyone who purchased Tiger. We are ALSO going to make the kits available for free to everyone and just charge for mailing costs.
ADDITIONALLY, as soon as we have finalized the updates, I will post PDF files for immediate download as printed components will take a fair number of months to produce.
We do are absolute best to produce the best games possible. Tiger was not hurried, it was tested for months, and months, and months. Well, it turns out that after all that time, we still didn't get it right. So, we're going to invest the time and money needed to make it right because I believe in the Tank Leader series. It is my goal to have people look back at this phase and say, yes, the initial game had some issues, but DVG fixed them, and it is now an awesome, and expanding, series of games.
Dan's a stand up guy. Will be interesting to see what they come up with...
I very much appreciate what he's doing and am, though in a different line of work, sympathetic.
That said, the rules changes that were mentioned earlier are a bit too substantive to be covered under a tarp of "we tried our best".
Now, what the remedy is beyond a Colbert "wag of the finger", that I do not know...I can only hope that there were lessons learned.
I wish Dan the best as he seems like a nice guy but maybe it's time to look at who's doing the playtesting for him and find gamers outside of his inner circle that will tell him as it is as far as realism vs playability goes.
Quote from: GJK on July 20, 2015, 11:11:37 AM
I wish Dan the best as he seems like a nice guy but maybe it's time to look at who's doing the playtesting for him and find gamers outside of his inner circle that will tell him as it is as far as realism vs playability goes.
+1
Since Kickstarter is funding their games, the quality suffers it seems...DVG is pumping out games like there's no tomorrow...and more and more Leader games gives the impression of trying to press the juice out of a well established game series to the limit...but it's the same with Columbia Games so the wargame hobby is going the same route like the videogame industry.... :-\
I had been starting to work on a review of Tiger Leader, but decided to hold off until they get their rules updated and the kinks worked out.
I echo the sentiment that it sucks to spend $90 on a beta test kit, but it's good that Dan and company are working on making it right. They want Tiger Leader to be a flagship of their new 'tank leader' line of games, so they want to get this right for future endeavors. Hopefully they get it right the second time around, because I do like this game, warts and all.
Has anybody seen any word on whether or not they plan to update/correct FC: Nimitz as well?
Quote from: GJK on July 22, 2015, 07:52:20 AM
Has anybody seen any word on whether or not they plan to update/correct FC: Nimitz as well?
No idea, but the BGG page doesn't seem to reflect any plans for changes. However, one of the BGG users did a rewrite of the rules, and he summarizes some of his changes here:
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1304146/detailed-variant-rules
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on July 22, 2015, 07:56:42 AM
Quote from: GJK on July 22, 2015, 07:52:20 AM
Has anybody seen any word on whether or not they plan to update/correct FC: Nimitz as well?
No idea, but the BGG page doesn't seem to reflect any plans for changes. However, one of the BGG users did a rewrite of the rules, and he summarizes some of his changes here:
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1304146/detailed-variant-rules
Thanks BC, I'll check that out to see if they do something different with this box of parts that I have.
Superb news the expansion will be free.. hopefully the game will be just what I was hoping for!
Well, technically, they said they're going to charge shipping...which really isn't that big a deal considering how much it will cost them to print new components. And it will take months to produce and print them out.
They also said they'd make it free for anyone that buys the next Tank Leader game, whatever that may be. I'm guessing there will be a Sherman Leader or maybe an M1A1 Leader, something along those lines, next.
Also, making everything available as a PDF is great, but I'm tentative when it comes to the manual. I'm thinking they should reorganize it so rules aren't buried in other rules. We will see if they do that. If not, I've actually been working on a newer format to it based on the current version of the manual; I'll wait to add the new rules to it once an official set is released.
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on July 23, 2015, 10:59:40 AM
Well, technically, they said they're going to charge shipping...which really isn't that big a deal considering how much it will cost them to print new components. ...
It is a big deal if you live anywhere outside of the US. >:(
I would have been happy if they just corrected the rules they had to make the game playable instead going off and re-doing the game! :tickedoff:
I've had no problems with the manual, it's just like all the other DVG manuals and once you've figured out one the rest are easy.
Bartheart..I live outside US..but I can't imagine it being that heavy. Plus I'm hoping the shop I bought it from may get them for their customers..who knows..
Quote from: Barthheart on July 23, 2015, 11:06:20 AM
It is a big deal if you live anywhere outside of the US. >:(
My bad. True enough, goodness knows. :-\
As far as redoing the rules...yes, I agree. This feels too much like the game is getting a total overhaul and not just making a few changes here and there. Keep an eye on the BGG page to see what they've done thus far. Christopher Dean from the NWS store is doing a fantastic job coordinating all of the user input thus far:
https://boardgamegeek.com/article/19457172#19457172
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on July 23, 2015, 11:11:25 AM
...
Christopher Dean from the NWS store is doing a fantastic job coordinating all of the user input thus far:
....
Or meddling... I like Chris as a retailer... but I think he's the one driving the "additions" to the game..... :(
Yeah...my perception, though, is he's submitting all of the user-provided input (as well as his own, yes). It will be up to Dan V. and company as to what they end up doing, of course.
I'm really hoping they DON'T go with something more detailed, combat-wise. I kind of rolled my eyes when I saw rules for AP ammo and flank shots and all that crap. I just want something that plays fast and makes general sense. Some things didn't make sense - like infantry taking out tanks at range. Changing their attack to Range 0 is a game-changer, quite literally.
If this 'beta' is a mess (and he/they probably shouldn't have used that word in describing the new rules set, as that's pissed off more than a few over at BGG), there might not be a lot of chance for the Tank Leader series to take off. We'll see.
Latest post from Chris....emphasis is mine...
QuoteJust to be clear to everyone.. Dan and Rick have been very receptive to my suggestions and feedback regarding the combat system in Tiger Leader. Dan had very good intentions with his original concept at trying to keep the tactical engine as streamlined as possible and yes there were some various parts I did not 100% agree with - which I obviously posted my own suggested modified and variants rules for everyone to try out.
The updated combat system I submitted for review I feel gives a good level of additional historical accuracy - and yet - does not increase the workload on the player. The first PDF posting will be a beta version so players can then submit their thoughts before the updates are put into final production as no matter how much you playtest a wargame you can never match the scrutiny of hundreds, or thousands, of players so we are keeping the door open for constructive feedback to help further improve and tweak the updated system further if needed. For that matter, my recommendations give room for improved flexibility to tweak the design.
So, I decided over the last several days, as free time allowed, to reorganize the Tiger Leader manual in its entirety.
I did NOT do this for pay, or because DVG asked me (or anyone else for that matter)...I mentioned upthread somewhere I was considering doing this. I only did it for my reference and for my usage. I am not intending to send this over to DVG to get their feedback; this can pretty much be considered a 'fan-made' product.
This version (1.1) is only a reorg of the current manual's rules. I did not incorporate any of the proposed changes over on BGG and will wait for 'official' material from DVG before changing any of the 1.1 manual that I've created.
I've attached it here so those of you that are familiar with the manual may download it, if you'd like, and let me know what you think.
It is NOT complete, either - no 'frills' or extra decor, and there are a few holes here and there (Game Set-Up is the main one, I think, that I've not done yet, so there might be references throughout the rules telling the player what to do/how to set up - I intend to move all this to this Game Set-Up section). I'm aware of all the minor things that need to be fixed, as well as most of the major ones (for example, clearly defining the difference between Vehicles and Infantry, as well as what Tactics are, which interestingly enough aren't defined anywhere in the current manual).
I did make several changes to the existing graphics. It took me a while to land on some of the designs and I tried several different ways, none of which really did it for me. Some of these are the first ones I'm comfortable with doing.
Let me know what you guys think.
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on July 24, 2015, 09:23:38 AM
So, I decided over the last several days, as free time allowed, to reorganize the Tiger Leader manual in its entirety.
I did NOT do this for pay, or because DVG asked me (or anyone else for that matter)...I mentioned upthread somewhere I was considering doing this. I only did it for my reference and for my usage. I am not intending to send this over to DVG to get their feedback; this can pretty much be considered a 'fan-made' product.
This version (1.1) is only a reorg of the current manual's rules. I did not incorporate any of the proposed changes over on BGG and will wait for 'official' material from DVG before changing any of the 1.1 manual that I've created.
I've attached it here so those of you that are familiar with the manual may download it, if you'd like, and let me know what you think.
It is NOT complete, either - no 'frills' or extra decor, and there are a few holes here and there (Game Set-Up is the main one, I think, that I've not done yet, so there might be references throughout the rules telling the player what to do/how to set up - I intend to move all this to this Game Set-Up section). I'm aware of all the minor things that need to be fixed, as well as most of the major ones (for example, clearly defining the difference between Vehicles and Infantry, as well as what Tactics are, which interestingly enough aren't defined anywhere in the current manual).
I did make several changes to the existing graphics. It took me a while to land on some of the designs and I tried several different ways, none of which really did it for me. Some of these are the first ones I'm comfortable with doing.
Let me know what you guys think.
Good job BC.... I have been kinda in a head scratching mode with DVG as of late. Dan is a stand up guy, but lately it seems like their QC and overall play testing has taken a step back. Tiger Leader was missing a card from the production run with other omissions... Maybe they are over loaded or who knows, but I want them to do well therefore I think it is time to re-evaluate their process.
The last couple of releases has been far from smooth in delivery, and to be honest I think they will get it right. I was hoping that Nimitz would get an update/expansion as I am keeping it and like it, however it has fallen short of expectations. I was putting together documentation from the variations Chris was doing with Tiger Leader, but with the announcement of the expansion I have stopped to see what is released. Warfighter's manual was a complete mess, and Tiger Leader and Nimitz are close behind....
DVG is a good company and I will continue to purchase their products, however I feel a re-eval is needed and maybe a different direction on the documentation and outside play testing.
PE
Thanks, PE.
I had started doing a re-write of Warfighter also, but stopped months ago. I can't get back into it until I have time to devote to that. It might be easier to start over from scratch since I have no idea where I stopped on it.
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on July 24, 2015, 10:13:05 AMI had started doing a re-write of Warfighter also, but stopped months ago.
No, you started a rewrite of "Warfighter: The Special Forces Card Game"
Unless you printed a set of rules from me, you haven't been working on "Warfighter" ;)
Jeez, with this again, Brant? :P
Technically you are right, of course, so I stand corrected. :-[
O0
Regardless, it's clearly a mess structure-wise...at least from my perspective, I could be wrong.
It's also a mess content-wise. In the above TL2.pdf file, I stuck with reorganizing; I might have rewritten 5% of the content, trying to word it better than it was originally, but I haven't read it through for a content change. I figured I'd wait to see what changes DVG makes first.
I'm more than happy they will do an advanced version..we will all have a choice then.
I spoke to the game company I bought it from in the UK who then contacted DVG. Seems the free update will be sent to the shop and then onto me so no over seas shipping involved.
It seems like there is going to be a free update..followed at some point by a paid expansion.
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on July 23, 2015, 11:27:13 AM
I'm really hoping they DON'T go with something more detailed, combat-wise. I kind of rolled my eyes when I saw rules for AP ammo and flank shots and all that crap. I just want something that plays fast and makes general sense.
Really BC? Sorry, I just don't get this statement. Who wouldn't want to actually play a "tank commander" in this thing by simulating those kinds of decisions? Or is the individual tank abstracted in this game and it's more about the platoon or company? I'm just so totally opposite of this statement; I was basically looking for an updated (and German crewed) version of Patton's Best with this one. Clearly this is not that.
I agree with GJK. The trouble with TL it's to abstract so we have Mg units taking out tanks etc. Plus the generic same old mission type is to it's detriment aswell. They just haven't got the balance right between abstraction and ease of play and getting realistic results and be fun.
What's great now though is we will have a game for those who enjoy it how it is and a game that's great for those who want abit more detail. Can't see any negative there.
Quote from: GJK on July 25, 2015, 05:43:34 AM
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on July 23, 2015, 11:27:13 AM
I'm really hoping they DON'T go with something more detailed, combat-wise. I kind of rolled my eyes when I saw rules for AP ammo and flank shots and all that crap. I just want something that plays fast and makes general sense.
Really BC? Sorry, I just don't get this statement.
You don't need to apologize. It is what it is. DVG games of this kind of scope are pretty well known for trying to balance large-scale tactical combat without getting fiddly with lots of details. For me, going into lots of details is a wrong turn. Keep reading below, maybe this will make more sense in a moment.
Quote
Who wouldn't want to actually play a "tank commander" in this thing by simulating those kinds of decisions? Or is the individual tank abstracted in this game and it's more about the platoon or company?
It's more about the platoon/company (Kampfgruppe) versus Battalion-strength enemy units. It's NOT Patton's Best, not at all. That's the whole point I'm making. This does not need Patton's Best levels of detail in a sim of this scope. Besides, there's already mods for Patton's Best if you want to change things to being in command of a German tank, with that system.
Quote
I'm just so totally opposite of this statement; I was basically looking for an updated (and German crewed) version of Patton's Best with this one. Clearly this is not that.
Right. That's my point. This is NOT Patton's Best. DVG has always tried to balance playability with realism, something they've caught flak on numerous times, but trying to do what they do is not easy. You can't make everyone happy - those that want more detail think it's too light, those that don't want enormous detail might get miffed at adding unit positioning (front/side/rear), hex facing, flank shots, different ammo types, ammo versus target types, and so on, and so on.
I tend to lean more into the latter category. While there certainly ARE things that need to be fixed in this TL game (Infantry versus tank combat is one, which actually was rather well changed by making Infantry unable to engage vehicles except at Range 0, where they might have a lucky shot at taking down a tank), in general, I think the system is fine. It reminds me a lot of the old Thunderbolt/Apache Leader game (by GMT), which was a good game system with just enough realism.
Now, GJK, TW - I could be wrong. I was merely expressing an opinion that I hope they do not go overboard on the detail and turn this into a fiddly tactical simulator, which in my opinion is well beyond the intended scope of the game. A little detail, I have no problem with. A lot of detail, I'd prefer that it go into some kind of Optional Rule category, so you can tailor-make your game to the level of detail that you want. This way, you get the game you want, and I get the game I want.
When I review this game...and I am waiting for this refurbished rule set from them before doing so - I'm not going to lambast it if it gets too detailed. Who knows - maybe flank shots, unit facing, and all that jazz will actually make it a much better game!
I don't know.
I was merely saying I hope they don't try to overthink it and get this too bogged down into a game that it clearly was not intended to be.
BC..fully understand. I think what we both want is probably very similar. I'm not wanting uber detail that would turn the game into a slow mind melting chore (that type of game is much better suited to being a PC wargame where the computer keeps track and does the rule implementation etc thereby taking the burden away)..but also don't want MG units taking out Tiger tanks etc.
Finally like myself your happy with two sets of rules for two types of game player. That way no one loses out! Who wouldn't want that?
Here's some more stuff posted from over at BGG.
Quote******** PROGRESS REPORT 7/26/2015
Hi, Dan and I have had some hectic schedules but we are almost ready to launch the PDF v1.0 beta of the updated rules and components. Dan is testing out the updated tactical rules and we are both going over proofing the updates. Rick already gave his approval of the changes. So far the updates include a set of modified tactical rules, easier to understand DRMs, a split attack vs defense die roll system, updated counters and German unit cards, and some new optional rules. We should be ready to post the PDF by around Mon-Wed.
If there are any questions let me know.
******** UPDATED RULES SAMPLE 7/26/2015
The rules below will be included in the beta PDF files. I am posting them so players can try them out while we finalize the rest of the update.
* AT Teams can only attack out to range 1.
* MGs and Halftracks cannot damage vehicles#. They can only cause stress.
* Infantry can only attack vehicles# at range 0.
* Artillery and mortars cannot move and fire on the same turn.
* Long range attack DRMs: Range 2 -1, Range 3 -2.
* US tanks can fire out to range 3.
* Maximum MG and Halftrack attack range is 1.
# Exception: Trucks can be damaged and attacked at max range.
Stay tuned for further updates.
Thanks
Christopher Dean
NWS
What are your thoughts on the list? MGs and Halftracks not being able to attack vehicles, but able to cause their Commander Stress, is good. Not lumping Infantry into that rule, but saying they can only attack Vehicles at Range 0...I guess it will depend on how, if at all, they change the enemy movement chart.
I've filled out more of the TL rule revision to include the set-up section and some other info, but does anyone find the flow of the previous download more helpful, or not?
Kind of happy I didn't jump on this early but glad to see it getting revised. Makes it worth a second look.
Quote from: Double Deuce on July 27, 2015, 10:31:16 AM
Kind of happy I didn't jump on this early but glad to see it getting revised. Makes it worth a second look.
Wait for a second reprint.... it will have updated cards and counters... unlike mine.... >:(
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on July 27, 2015, 08:41:37 AM
Here's some more stuff posted from over at BGG.
Quote******** PROGRESS REPORT 7/26/2015
Hi, Dan and I have had some hectic schedules but we are almost ready to launch the PDF v1.0 beta of the updated rules and components. Dan is testing out the updated tactical rules and we are both going over proofing the updates. Rick already gave his approval of the changes. So far the updates include a set of modified tactical rules, easier to understand DRMs, a split attack vs defense die roll system, updated counters and German unit cards, and some new optional rules. We should be ready to post the PDF by around Mon-Wed.
If there are any questions let me know.
******** UPDATED RULES SAMPLE 7/26/2015
The rules below will be included in the beta PDF files. I am posting them so players can try them out while we finalize the rest of the update.
* AT Teams can only attack out to range 1.
* MGs and Halftracks cannot damage vehicles#. They can only cause stress.
* Infantry can only attack vehicles# at range 0.
* Artillery and mortars cannot move and fire on the same turn.
* Long range attack DRMs: Range 2 -1, Range 3 -2.
* US tanks can fire out to range 3.
* Maximum MG and Halftrack attack range is 1.
# Exception: Trucks can be damaged and attacked at max range.
Stay tuned for further updates.
Thanks
Christopher Dean
NWS
What are your thoughts on the list? MGs and Halftracks not being able to attack vehicles, but able to cause their Commander Stress, is good. Not lumping Infantry into that rule, but saying they can only attack Vehicles at Range 0...I guess it will depend on how, if at all, they change the enemy movement chart.
I've filled out more of the TL rule revision to include the set-up section and some other info, but does anyone find the flow of the previous download more helpful, or not?
Not sure about this yet. MG and Halftracks can't damage tanks, armoured cars and halftracks. They can cause stress to the commanders.... but they can't wound or kill the commanders....
Some of this makes sense. Some of it is going to make my current games pieces and cards obsolete... unless I pay $4000 to pay for shipping the update kit to my igloo.... :P
Here's an updated version of the previous fix I created. I added the setup info and think I fixed most of the text to reflect its place in the manual.
Please download if interested and let me know if you think it works.
I incorporated the few changes that are listed on BGG. A summary (highlighted) can be found on the last page.
Still not sure why I'm doing this, other than the fact that I'm a freak and enjoy manual writing and editing. O0
Note: the TOC is broken because I didn't update it in this last version. Sorry about that.
Thanks again B_C. I've been reading the rulebook and scratching my head ever since the game arrived on my doorstep.
But then again, when it comes to actually playing I'm not as smart as the average warbear. ::)
I'm not sure I did much other than to just put the current rules into a more logical order, but maybe that makes all the difference? Let me know what you think.
It still feels like it needs a re-write, but that's me. It's difficult for me to leave well enough alone.
'Still not sure why I'm doing this, other than the fact that I'm a freak and enjoy manual writing and editing.' O0
I wish I knew you liked doing this for kicks BC, :)
I found the Rulebook writing, layout and edits to be one of the most difficult aspects of the 'Old School Tactical' design.
Jamm, I've been a technical writer/instructional designer for 12+ years now. When I see something that is in desperate need of editing, I see it as an opportunity to enjoy myself.
I've done several board game and computer game manuals over the years, for pay, but my experience is that most companies don't have the coin to truly engage a full-fledged technical writer, as the market rate for this kind of work is VERY high, usually, because it's per word in most cases.
In this particular case, I just like this game at heart and know if it can be better through a re-write, I'll do it. But just to be clear, this was totally on my initiative and not asked for by anyone, anywhere, and not for any kind of compensation. It helps me wrap my mind around the game better.
When you say 'Old School Tactical' design, what are you referring to exactly? A particular title or are you meaning something like the line of Avalon Hill products from the 70s and 80s?
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on July 30, 2015, 10:52:33 AM
...
When you say 'Old School Tactical' design, what are you referring to exactly? A particular title or are you meaning something like the line of Avalon Hill products from the 70s and 80s?
It's his, Jamm's, new game design coming out soon as it was successfully kickstarted and will be published by Flying Pig Games! Do you live under a rock?!? :o
http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=12711.0
:D
Quote from: Barthheart on July 30, 2015, 11:15:56 AMDo you live under a rock?!? :o
He's in Houston, so yeah, kinda... ;)
And it's mosquito season there, where the mosquito's are the size of small birds, so I imagine that he doesn't get out much. ;)
Well if you've ever get to go to Newfoundland.....
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.postthisinc.com%2Fimages%2Fnfmosquitosquad.jpg&hash=78ea8a4a52fdb979e71f676ad65dcb5067728c13)
:P
Right now I'm just trying to keep the fleas out of the house. Each of the last 2 summers has been a nightmare with the dogs bringing them in. So far so good...
Mosquitoes are pretty much wasps, and therefore completely useless except to be giant d*cks.
Most of the Insect Kingdom's main reason for existence is to be giant d!cks to the human race....
We moved in to our new house out here north of Austin (far enough away from whacko land...har har) and am absolutely loving it. The wife though...not so much at first. She was a magnet for chiggers. Never had them before as a kid she says. Must of lived in doors through her entire youth if she was in Texas. So she's dealing with that when it happens...not once, not twice but five times....scorpions in the house. Holy cheesus she's a wreck. Never dealt with them either she says. So we've had out exterminators twice and I've reinforced all the new insulation around doors and windows. Haven't seen one in a couple of weeks now. The things are like ants to me but you'd of thought Rodan got inside. Anyways, had to share.....back to this little game...what's it called? Ah yes, Le Tigre Leader. ;)
Hold on... back up a minute there, boss...
Quote from: GJK on July 30, 2015, 03:06:30 PMThe wife though.
huh?!
when did
that happen?!
Yeah what the hell?
Not officially - the long term fiance is more like it. Might as well be the wife though.
Quote from: GJK on July 30, 2015, 04:23:30 PM
Not officially - the long term fiance is more like it. Might as well be the wife though.
She was looking over your shoulder as you were typing, wasn't she?
Quote from: Staggerwing on July 30, 2015, 06:29:46 PM
Quote from: GJK on July 30, 2015, 04:23:30 PM
Not officially - the long term fiance is more like it. Might as well be the wife though.
She was looking over your shoulder as you were typing, wasn't she?
So busted!
Pretty much common-law married in Texas after...I think it's six months or so of living in sin. O0
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on July 31, 2015, 09:28:24 AM
Pretty much common-law married in Texas after...I think it's six months or so of living in sin. O0
Yeah, well, it was 2 years living together, 2 living apart, 1 being apart and now half way back to being common law married folk again. I keep telling her, just play me one ASL scenario and I'll make all your dreams come true....
:2funny: O0
Quote from: GJK on July 31, 2015, 10:53:55 AM
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on July 31, 2015, 09:28:24 AM
Pretty much common-law married in Texas after...I think it's six months or so of living in sin. O0
Yeah, well, it was 2 years living together, 2 living apart, 1 being apart and now half way back to being common law married folk again. I keep telling her, just play me one ASL scenario and I'll make all your dreams come true....
She'd beat your butt then all your dreams would be done. :knuppel2:
Good Hunting.
MR
I was on top of this Tiger Leader update thing multiple times a day for a while, but RL events kept me by the wayside for the last 2-3 weeks...I haven't even checked the BGG forums in that time to see what kind of updates they've had on the game, and a quick check just now seems to show that no updates have been made in 2+ weeks. ???
I wouldn't expect a rules rewrite to be released for months, from my limited experience of such things.
I say this as someone who thinks highly of DVG and has a depleted bank account to prove it: what's the corporate line on this? Where would I look to find it?
While I very much look forward to my on-order copy of the expansion to the DVG game that dare not speak its name, I find the present situation disheartening...
Quote from: Nefaro on August 12, 2015, 08:15:58 AM
I wouldn't expect a rules rewrite to be released for months, from my limited experience of such things.
That's just it.. it's not supposed to be a re-write just fixing what's broke. >:(
Well we'll just keep with our little OT chatter while you're working that all out BC. ;)
Ha. Yeah...
I'd hoped they'd have posted something by this point...something I might incorporate into the reboot book I did.
When you see the BGG thread, there's really not that many rules points, so either they're playtesting the hell out of them or there's a lot more under the hood they've not mentioned yet.
Fixing stuff? I dunno. I don't even own Tiger Leader right now.
I thought they were going to redo the rules in order to add more detailed armored interactions. Such as limiting infantry effectiveness against tanks & such? *shrug*
I recall the rules revision for Picket Duty taking around five or six months, and that was just adding more clarifications. While that may have taken that long due to scheduling more than anything, I'd imagine DVG would want to do some testing of any changes they make, and adjust-repeat from there.
Looks like yesterday, on BGG, there was a release of updated rules and game pieces for Tiger Leader:
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1419831/dvg-official-beta-v11-updated-rulescomponents-pack
There's a few PDFs:
- A Tiger Leader Update Kit, with two pages of rule updates/info, four pages of updated counters, and nine pages of German unit cards.
- A replacement card for the missing 023 STUG III.
- Two more German unit cards, AT teams 961 and 962.
- A diagram for AP and HE attack ratings: http://www.navalwarfare.net/files/TigerLeader/TLAPHEdiagram.jpg
I've reached out to Kevin at DVG to inquire as to when printed components will be available, though I bet it will be a long while before that happens (having to go to the printer, get proofed, mass-produced, then mailed out, which all takes a lot of time). They had previously said they'd send me a copy of Thunderbolt/Apache Leader, the newer version, so I could do a review and comparison with the old system, but that was a while ago and Kevin has not responded to my inquiries about that. I imagine they're getting their butts kicked trying to get this all done, but still, hopefully I hear from him soon.
That all said, there's no way I'm going to print out counters and/or cards at my expense to try to play this newer, updated system, for review or AAR purposes. I wouldn't imagine someone that shelled out $100 for this game would want to do that either. It's great that they provided everything, though, just in case there are those out there that want to do this. Of course, not everyone is going to mind going to Kinko's or whatever to print them out, and just might be happy to do so.
I will give this game coverage for GH once DVG gets this game finalized and the necessary components out. I REALLY REALLY want to do this. I like this game but I'm not doing a review of the 'old' version of it, nor an AAR, because this game in the future is going to be based on the changes they're making now. If someone in the near future is seeking info on the game and finds a review on the older version here, it's going to obviously give erroneous information. Better to wait and see what the final, polished version is.
In any case, those of you with Tiger Leader might want to check out the above link(s) and see what you think.
Yeah I've looked at the "changes" which only really deal with the tactical combat aspects of the game. I think there is still the problem with the enemy units rushing at your forces. This has not been addressed at all.
I haven't had a chance to play the new rules yet as Wing Leader is taking al my time a table space, but I will likely give it a spin soon. Making my own counters is not a big deal... print on sheet sized sticky labels, stick to matte board and cut out. Should take about an hour as there's not many to make... only new enemy units to try the new rules. The cards for the Germans can just be printed as a sheet and referenced from there.
I'm still feeling pretty burned by all this and will not likely support any further games in the series...... >:(
The details said they'd have a full print for the updated stuff done for the next Tank Leader game (Sherman Leader) and available through the site as well. Not sure if they're going to charge shipping if you just want to grab them from the site.
I can appreciate your industriousness, Barth. Where do you get your matte board? And if you print on sticky sheets...are you talking about labels? If it's not that big a deal I might do it myself too, but I want to be sure I get the right materials and not screw it up and make it worse for myself.
They say that the update printed kits will be available separate from the DVG site when they are ready. The kit is to be free but you need to pay shipping....which to here with the exchange will be about $50.... :tickedoff:
I get matte board from Michael's craft stores up here. Any place the does framing should be able to sell you some. I like it because it comes in different thicknesses. I use 2mm thick, makes nice counters. you can use "chip" board too, but it's thinner and harder to find up here. Or the cardboard of the back of a pad of paper... if anyone uses those anymore.
I print using my inkjet onto Avery full sheet labels. Peel and stick label to matte board and then cut the counters out using a rotatory cutter and a steel ruler.
Vance...Vance...we have had beer together...that's a sacred thing...but doood (three o's) who is so deserving of your love and affection that they can first hit you for near $100 (more?) and then demand you create the kit that fixes what they released broken?
Now, I think I'm OK with the "errata in exchange for shipping"...that sounds industry standard to me...but making me get all DIY?
No, no, no...
Look, go back to drinking yer Jack and Peach Schnapps and playing with yer tiny tin soldiers.
I'm only making the DIY stuff so I can try to play the game I paid >$90 for. I'm not hopeful it will work yet.
I'll be old and have forgotten about TL by the time they want to charge me $50 to send me my free fixit kit.... :buck2:
Don't try to change the subject you deep-fried-poutine-eating, Pavolovian victim of DVG...
Kinda glad I had a feeling about Tiger Leader and didn't pre-order.
Hell, I still have plenty of playtime left in Thunderbolt Apache Leader. Running German armored offensives in WW2 isn't high on my favorite theme list anyway.
I am a fan of DVG, however this is a pretty big misstep to a already good franchise line..... I just finished a game of Nimitz last week and for what it is I like it, but I so far have only played TL once. I will wait to print everything out after it has gone from Beta and see, but the game in itself is not bad and these latest updates could help it turn the corner... (re-write the manual) I may hesitate on further pre-orders, but DVG always makes good on their products one way or another....
PE
I dunno, DVG always had high quality games but this Kickstarter thing is apparently lowering quality... :-[
Quote from: Grimnirsson on August 19, 2015, 01:30:45 PM
I dunno, DVG always had high quality games but this Kickstarter thing is apparently lowering quality... :-[
The quality of the components are good, however they really need some more play testers and quality control on the manual. I think some added play testing and getting someone else to organize and write the manual would have saved this fiasco. Also, double checking the components would have yielded the missing card. I think all can be fixed, however will need to be done by their next game or it will became a little thin on the supporters.
PE
Quote from: PanzersEast on August 19, 2015, 01:53:57 PM
The quality of the components are good, however they really need some more play testers and quality control on the manual. I think some added play testing and getting someone else to organize and write the manual would have saved this fiasco. Also, double checking the components would have yielded the missing card. I think all can be fixed, however will need to be done by their next game or it will became a little thin on the supporters.
PE
This.
I really want to like this game as it's a missing element in my solo game library... but so far I'm not too happy or hopeful.....
The components are important of course, but a wargame is based on the rules. You can have a great game rules-wise and play it with sub-par components but weak rules will kill the game no matter how great the components are. I always have been a big fan of DVG but Kickstarter is poison...you get the money to get the game out and that means you spend less time on perfecting the system, the rules...the money is there, the game components are ready, bring it out. Next KS campaign...if you have to put your own money on the table, that's something different. I don't like KS, it killed the quality in videogames and it kills the quality in wargames (same with CG, since they chose the easy KS route their games suffer quality-wise (i.e. rules-wise)).
When it comes to Kickstarter tabletop games, the majority of the ones I've helped KS were 2nd editions.
Others were mostly component, feature, and rules-complete by the time the KS started. With accompanying gameplay tutorial vids & such that demonstrated exactly how they played.
Component completeness, printing errors, and screwy rules writing are fairly common issues with all complicated "designer" games. Maybe moreso with non-Kickstarter ones.
I am reminded of the episode of "Three Moves Ahead" where the designer of "Vietnam, 1965-75" admitted they didn't really playtest the massive grand campaign as such...
Our boutique market has always had its limits (where did one get to return his copy of "Siege of Constantinople" if displeased, anyway?) and I won't say KS has made it worse. I think it's evident though that flawed releases will be found out much sooner and the bar is raised a bit by that.
I don't think Kickstarter has necessarily made things worse. It has a lot more to do with game designers now finding themselves responsible for logistics, order building, and everything else that they've never had to deal with before. Mix that with set time frames for release that are often insanely optimistic (because they frequently don't know what's involved with getting things done) and you have a recipe for disaster. Has crowdfunding made this a bigger issue? Certainly. But placing the blame solely on it is a bit simplistic.
In the case of a small company like DVG, it just seems like they've perhaps tried to do too much too quickly. Their game release rate has really ramped up, and maybe this mess is an indication that they overreached a bit.
But I think that's part of the problem, KS actually allows you to do too much too quickly. At least it seems so to me.
But in the end it still comes down to game developers either not testing their product well enough prior to release, or not doing enough work in development to get those products to a finished state. That happened a lot before crowdfunding, too.
Sure it did happen before but it seems that the easy way to get the money for the next game print run makes it more likely that not only those who have been always sloppy qualitywise but also the publishers who had a closer look before publishing their next game pump them out too fast. I see this happen with two of m favorite companies DVG and CG. So I see a relation with croudfunding.
Did a play through with the printed kid (sleeved cards) and it plays a lot better than before. CAS is still missing however, which I think needs to be added. So far I am very happy with the changes made, however I really need a couple more play throughs to give a final verdict.
PE
Cool Stuff Inc has it on sale today for $44.99.
http://www.coolstuffinc.com/p/213947 (http://www.coolstuffinc.com/p/213947)
Quote from: Silent Disapproval Robot on September 17, 2015, 01:36:06 AM
Cool Stuff Inc has it on sale today for $44.99.
http://www.coolstuffinc.com/p/213947 (http://www.coolstuffinc.com/p/213947)
Half what I paid..... :tickedoff: and still not worth it..... :(
Quote from: Barthheart on September 17, 2015, 05:18:55 AMHalf what I paid.....
That's because yours included rights to beta-testing! ::)
Hey, Vance, remember that AWESOME time at Origins when CoolStuffInc. had a copy on the shelf for $65 and YOU didn't have it at HOME yet?
Yeah, that was AWESOME.
Quote from: Cyrano on September 17, 2015, 09:15:31 AM
Hey, Vance, remember that AWESOME time at Origins when CoolStuffInc. had a copy on the shelf for $65 and YOU didn't have it at HOME yet?
Yeah, that was AWESOME.
Everyone's a comedian.... where's my $20! ($47.50 CDN) >:(
Quote from: Barthheart on September 17, 2015, 09:33:17 AM
Everyone's a comedian.... where's my $20! ($47.50 CDN) >:(
I'm glad you mentioned that. I tried to send you $20 Paypal a month or two back, but screwed something up and it came back. It slipped my mind. Fortunately, Cyrano provoked you again, serving as an excellent reminder that I owed you the $20 he gave me to pay you.
So it's on the way via PayPal again. Hopefully. Maybe.
Quote from: panzerde on September 21, 2015, 06:03:02 PM
Quote from: Barthheart on September 17, 2015, 09:33:17 AM
Everyone's a comedian.... where's my $20! ($47.50 CDN) >:(
I'm glad you mentioned that. I tried to send you $20 Paypal a month or two back, but screwed something up and it came back. It slipped my mind. Fortunately, Cyrano provoked you again, serving as an excellent reminder that I owed you the $20 he gave me to pay you.
So it's on the way via PayPal again. Hopefully. Maybe.
Woohoo! It made it. Now I can buy beer again. O0
Ok Jim, Doug saved yer butt.... this time..... >:D
I'm glad you're buying beer with it. I was worried there for a minute that you might be planning on buying peach schnapps. :'(
Quote from: panzerde on September 21, 2015, 07:09:02 PM
I'm glad you're buying beer with it. I was worried there for a minute that you might be planning on buying peach schnapps. :'(
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.somethingawful.com%2Fforumsystem%2Femoticons%2Femot-barf.gif&hash=bbf80c81afb1a29008c0fe940c1b9e6c250c1278)
I had a chance to print and sleeve the upgrade kit v1.2 and run through a Campaign with the Blitz of Italy 1943. The mechanics have been cleaned up and during the start of the third week I had to abandon the campaign as I lost one of my Panther and Elephant tanks and a Half Track and 2 commanders. With just 6 so per week and a -2 because of a Artillery site, I was not going to get much further. While I enjoyed the game, overall if you did not like the original rules and game-play this is not going to change your mind. It is odd as I have mixed feelings about this one and may play another campaign or two before I decide where it stands in all of the DVG games I have. I have all of the Leader Series games and only miss Alexander in the Field Commander series (I will get eventually).
PE
Has there been any word on the availability of the printed update kit?
I've been poking around what I thought were the relevant websites, but have found nothing.
The upgrade kit is being printed with the Sherman Leader game, or at least that's what I heard last, so a while to wait yet..... :P
Anyone want my copy? Cheap?
There's a representation on the website that the update kits would be provided at no charge other than shipping?
That is correct, no charge except for shipping... Or free shipping if you order another game....
Quote from: Barthheart on March 31, 2016, 12:11:40 PM
The upgrade kit is being printed with the Sherman Leader game, or at least that's what I heard last, so a while to wait yet..... :P
Anyone want my copy? Cheap?
You know, I bet you would like this game if it didn't start you on the same position in the galaxy every time. :tickedoff:
OK, Vance's rage aside, and Doug's bemused poking at my favorite Canadian (other than Stan Rogers, of course, but he's dead), is this thing available somewhere?
Gah!
Quote from: Cyrano on March 31, 2016, 04:41:38 PM
OK, Vance's rage aside, and Doug's bemused poking at my favorite Canadian (other than Stan Rogers, of course, but he's dead), is this thing available somewhere?
Gah!
No it is not. I repeat, it's not being printed alone. It is waiting until Sherman Leader is being printed to reduce the cost of printing. Only then will it be available.
Now having said all that, there is a print and play prerelease version alvailable on BGG... But, to me, it didn't improve the game just added more different rules.... :P
Quote from: Cyrano on March 31, 2016, 04:41:38 PMis this thing available somewhere?
I suspect that if you wanted it, Vance could make a copy available at Origins ;)
Oh, the angry mounty remains dear to me...I counsel him, however, to re-read his earlier remarks and realize it was not at all clear that we were to wait until Sherman Leader comes out.
Which I must figure out some cunning way to get him to by.
Perhaps moose pheromones...
Not sure how much more clearly I could say:
Quote from: Barthheart on March 31, 2016, 12:11:40 PM
The upgrade kit is being printed with the Sherman Leader game, or at least that's what I heard last, so a while to wait yet..... :P
....
:P
Here's the related BGG thread:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1419831/dvg-official-beta-v12-updated-rulescomponents-pack
I think those that ordered TL and now backed Warfighter should have the printed TL upgrade included in the package.