http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3404457
http://www.matrixgames.com/beta/
...so how long has this been in development?? The forum goes back to March 2004!
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3405189
Quote
The computer version of Australian Design Group's (www.a-d-g.com.au) classic board game, covering both the European and Pacific Theaters of Operations during World War II is finally coming on your screens this November.
Wow. I figured it for vaporware.
I thought it was only gonna be pbem. No single-player AI. This is it, right?
Quote from: mirth on September 10, 2013, 01:49:18 PM
Wow. I figured it for vaporware.
Well, no AI at the start.... Multiplayer only, either online or PBEM. I believe the PBEM requires you to set "AI"-like settings for specifiying reactions to the other player's actions, to cut down on the number of file transfers.
Not knowing too much about the history behind the development of this game I have to ask this question: "If there is no AI why has the game been in development for the past 7 years?"
Quote from: smittyohio on September 10, 2013, 02:44:46 PM
Quote from: mirth on September 10, 2013, 01:49:18 PM
Wow. I figured it for vaporware.
Well, no AI at the start.... Multiplayer only, either online or PBEM. I believe the PBEM requires you to set "AI"-like settings for specifiying reactions to the other player's actions, to cut down on the number of file transfers.
Gawd, it sounds harder than playing a physical game of WiF :P
Quote from: W8taminute on September 10, 2013, 03:07:36 PM
Not knowing too much about the history behind the development of this game I have to ask this question: "If there is no AI why has the game been in development for the past 7 years?"
Because the SOLE developer and by this I mean one man tried as hard as he could for 6 and a half years of those 7 besides many operations and a heart bypass - he should never have been left alone to do it
I've only been keeping half an eye/ear on this one since its been vaporware for so long. I forgot that's its being released without any AI..so Fuggetta 'bout it.
$100 price tag? The board game is super expensive.
Some board game rules do not translate well into computer games because they are complex, arbitrary and open to interpreta tion. While a human mind can easily enforce these rules and the deliberate once a vague situation arises the computer game need to step to all types of situations beforehand. Programming an AI that can take advantageof the rules is even harder.
Quote from: jomni on September 10, 2013, 07:14:44 PM
$100 price tag? The board game is super expensive.
Some board game rules do not translate well into computer games because they are complex, arbitrary and open to interpreta tion. While a human mind can easily enforce these rules and the deliberate once a vague situation arises the computer game need to step to all types of situations beforehand. Programming an AI that can take advantageof the rules is even harder.
Indeed. The detailed sequence of play plus the incredibly complex interactions between different aspects of the game have been a nightmare to get right.
Programming a new game from scratch would have been much, much easier, but then it wouldn't have been WIF.
You know the old saying, "What do you call a computer game without an AI?" a board game without cardboard or dead! :( Too bad Matrix couldn't have provided some more resources, they should have known early on the developer was going to need help with the computer AI, that was clear reading the forums early on.
I had been hoping for a single player with computer AI. Although it won't be on my list, I do hope that the final product is solid for all those who have been waiting for so long.
I'm deeply tempted to sign up for the beta despite knowing absolutely nothing about the board game it's based on. It just sounds so freakingly complicated that soon all WitP's lunch money are belong to WIF.
Computer games with no AI are all over the place. Especially the multilayer shooters.
Yeah. they include AI but it can't cope. Then people complain. Never ending whining.
Actually without AI, would people buy this if they can do Vassal?
Maybe if you are lazy enforcing rules.
I am very disappointed to read this won't have an AI.
I understand the reasoning, but I'm still disappointed.
If I was a boardgame player of this, I'd probably be interested in giving it a go for the multiplayer with rule enforcement. But as a primarily SP guy, this is, unfortunately, a no-sale for me.
I have WiF4 and WiF5 (Final Edition) but have never played it. I want to, but just haven't invested the time to learn it. I'd be interested in the PC game (with rules enforcement) for the learning experience. I'll just play it solitaire in order to get a grasp of the rules and then perhaps seek out a pbem opponent. I think that the ultimate WiF experience though will be actually sitting at the table with a small group and playing. Hard for many to organize such a thing but I'm fortunate to have a local gaming group that would be all for it.
I'm really hoping the PBEM doesn't suffer to much from having certain reactions handled by player settings, for lack of a better phrase. I'm just not sure i could do an online multiplayer with a game of this length and complexity.
Quote from: jomni on September 10, 2013, 08:04:14 PM
Computer games with no AI are all over the place. Especially the multilayer shooters.
Yeah. they include AI but it can't cope. Then people complain. Never ending whining.
Actually without AI, would people buy this if they can do Vassal?
Maybe if you are lazy enforcing rules.
This game isn't a shooter, name one computer strategy game without an AI? A computer game that works through Vassal, Huh?
How are they going to price this, sell it full price and promise an AI later or sell it half price and sell the AI as on add-on? Either way, I just don't see this working out. You can't just slap an AI on a game, it's like designing a car with no engine, no drive train and no place for a gas tank and then tell the customer you can just add them later.
It's almost like it's a "Game Assist Program"; it assists WiF players by facilitating pbem play and handling rules enforcement. Something similar would be "Warplanner" for "A World at War" (but with rules enforcement). I think that it becomes a whole different product if an AI is added. That said - I think that $100 for a "GAP" is way over priced but they would counter that the programming that was needed to include the rules enforcement warrented that cost. I would hope that Matrix would include the AI as a free download for people that purchase the "GAP" version but seeing an AI produced for the thing probably wouldn't happen in my lifetime and if it did, it would be a miracle if performed a the competency level of a 6th grader.
Where are you guys seeing a $100 price tag?
I made the assumption from Jomni's post - which I shouldn't do without checking for myself. I don't know what the MSRP will be once it's ready.
$100 is my speculation. But many think it is plausible given the time it took to make and the price of the board game ($500!).
I definitely hope I am wrong.
im sure i read itll be up there in their premier release library - witp, wite, the command ones and the Command one - all hefty price tags
Quote from: undercovergeek on September 12, 2013, 10:07:46 AM
im sure i read itll be up there in their premier release library - witp, wite, the command ones and the Command one - all hefty price tags
It'll be interesting to see if it sells very well without an AI. Sure, people who play WIF already maybe won't mind too much, since they might be more inclined to tackle multiplayer, but it's kinda a hard sell for people who haven't ever played. Maybe they are just trying to get some income rolling in to finish the AI.
id love to play it PBEM with someone, and the massive advantage i can see to this over board game and vassal is hopefully the game applying all the penalties, bonuses, add ons and re rolls without me having to consult a multi layered bible everytime i need to make a move, and then for me as a newbie its a way of easing into the game if the game itself does all the hard work whilst i just play 'awesome General' - how many of these people there are is a different matter
Btw, I was looking at the matrix forums, and I think at some point PBEM got cut from the initial release also. So, online multiplayer only at launch, unless I'm missing something. Or solitaire / hot seat I guess...
Quote from: mirth on September 10, 2013, 01:49:18 PM
Wow. I figured it for vaporware.
Im still holding out for Road to Moscow. 8)
its still coming and atilla60 and I are going to try to get a Group together once its out *hint hint*
Quote from: jomni on September 12, 2013, 07:31:44 AM
$100 is my speculation. But many think it is plausible given the time it took to make and the price of the board game ($500!).
I definitely hope I am wrong.
You can't sell a computer game for a $100, with or without an AI. Can anyone imagine Gary Grisby selling one of his games without an AI for $100? I think selling the game without an AI is just dooming it to failure. Matrix should either help the developer with additional resources to complete the AI or just cancel it.
$100 computer game, the only game that comes to mind is Steel Beasts, a military simulation also sold as a game.
There are other games out there over $100.
VBS2 comes to mind. But again, it's a sim that's also sold commercially.
http://www.wargamer.com/article/3457/interview-world-in-flames-exclusive-wargamer.com-interview (http://www.wargamer.com/article/3457/interview-world-in-flames-exclusive-wargamer.com-interview)
QuoteMatrix/Slitherine have a contract with Australian Design Group for all 4 games in the World in Flames series, WiF itself, America in Flames, Patton in Flames and Days of Decision
And I suppose all of them will cost around 100 bucks...nah...I keep on learning and playing Axis Empires: Totaler Krieg/Dai Senso ;)
I was looking at the post on the Matrix forums "7 moments of wow!" (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3412067) and after looking at that, I'm thinking that learning TK2/DS and/or the "real" WiF, A3R or any other ETO/PTO board wargame combo would be easier than learning how to use that program (that is supposed to make playing WiF easier!). 7 moments of "wow!" indeed.
Quote from: Grimnirsson on October 18, 2013, 09:48:57 AM
http://www.wargamer.com/article/3457/interview-world-in-flames-exclusive-wargamer.com-interview (http://www.wargamer.com/article/3457/interview-world-in-flames-exclusive-wargamer.com-interview)
QuoteMatrix/Slitherine have a contract with Australian Design Group for all 4 games in the World in Flames series, WiF itself, America in Flames, Patton in Flames and Days of Decision
And I suppose all of them will cost around 100 bucks...nah...I keep on learning and playing Axis Empires: Totaler Krieg/Dai Senso ;)
They'd only get $100 out of me if it had a working, capable AI and PBEM. Having to play online real time holds no interest for me for this type of game. I suspect I'm not alone on that.
Quote from: Grimnirsson on October 18, 2013, 09:48:57 AM
http://www.wargamer.com/article/3457/interview-world-in-flames-exclusive-wargamer.com-interview (http://www.wargamer.com/article/3457/interview-world-in-flames-exclusive-wargamer.com-interview)
QuoteMatrix/Slitherine have a contract with Australian Design Group for all 4 games in the World in Flames series, WiF itself, America in Flames, Patton in Flames and Days of Decision
And I suppose all of them will cost around 100 bucks...nah...I keep on learning and playing Axis Empires: Totaler Krieg/Dai Senso ;)
Forget cost, what is the development schedule for all four? 50 years? :P
QuoteForget cost, what is the development schedule for all four? 50 years?
Well, it will be a head to head race then between these games and the new Up Front Edition... :P
Quote from: Grimnirsson on October 18, 2013, 11:07:34 AM
... and the new Up Front Edition... :P
Ugh, don't remind me!
I'm still mindful of the Matrix Empires in Arms debacle.
Michael
Quote from: GJK on October 18, 2013, 10:16:48 AM
I was looking at the post on the Matrix forums "7 moments of wow!" (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3412067) and after looking at that, I'm thinking that learning TK2/DS and/or the "real" WiF, A3R or any other ETO/PTO board wargame combo would be easier than learning how to use that program (that is supposed to make playing WiF easier!). 7 moments of "wow!" indeed.
....
Another major feature that lets a new player ease into learning the game are the 80 optional rules. after browsing that threat i thought its more "The 36th Chamber of Shaolin" (you have to painfully progress and finish one to open the next...to become a master) instead of '7 moments of wow' ;)
The whole "no AI version" and "someday AI version" discussion makes my brain hurt.
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3415202&mpage=1&key=�
Quote from: mirth on October 18, 2013, 01:03:57 PM
The whole "no AI version" and "someday AI version" discussion makes my brain hurt.
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3415202&mpage=1&key=�
OMG, the AI update, if it ever comes, won't even be a free upgrade?!?!? That's not a great way to reward the people who buy the initial version just to support them.
Quote from: smittyohio on October 18, 2013, 01:34:05 PM
Quote from: mirth on October 18, 2013, 01:03:57 PM
The whole "no AI version" and "someday AI version" discussion makes my brain hurt.
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3415202&mpage=1&key=�
OMG, the AI update, if it ever comes, won't even be a free upgrade?!?!? That's not a great way to reward the people who buy the initial version just to support them.
Yup. The whole thing sounds like a train wreck.
80 optional rules will help a newbie learn the game? That doesn't even make sense! And now you get to pay for an AI if/when it ever exists. Why wouldn't someone just play WiF over Vassal?
This thing has disaster written all over it in fluorescent paint.
Quote from: Arctic Blast on October 18, 2013, 05:21:12 PM
Why wouldn't someone just play WiF over Vassal?
Because this one enforces the rules for you. No more "if and but" negotiation.
Quote from: jomni on October 18, 2013, 05:26:18 PM
Quote from: Arctic Blast on October 18, 2013, 05:21:12 PM
Why wouldn't someone just play WiF over Vassal?
Because this one enforces the rules for you. No more "if and but" negotiation.
And for how many people is that going to be worth whatever high price tag this game ends up with?
Quote from: Arctic Blast on October 18, 2013, 05:29:07 PM
Quote from: jomni on October 18, 2013, 05:26:18 PM
Quote from: Arctic Blast on October 18, 2013, 05:21:12 PM
Why wouldn't someone just play WiF over Vassal?
Because this one enforces the rules for you. No more "if and but" negotiation.
And for how many people is that going to be worth whatever high price tag this game ends up with?
Existing WiF board game players who bought the game for $500 and has no one to play with. :)
Quote from: jomni on October 18, 2013, 05:36:08 PM
Quote from: Arctic Blast on October 18, 2013, 05:29:07 PM
Quote from: jomni on October 18, 2013, 05:26:18 PM
Quote from: Arctic Blast on October 18, 2013, 05:21:12 PM
Why wouldn't someone just play WiF over Vassal?
Because this one enforces the rules for you. No more "if and but" negotiation.
And for how many people is that going to be worth whatever high price tag this game ends up with?
Existing WiF board game players who bought the game for $500 and has no one to play with. :)
Ah yes, the crazy hermit market. ;D
Take a look at the huge map and hardback manuals that come with the game.....impressive!
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3441852
But with this, I can only imagine what the cost of this game is going to be....$150$ $200....more.......luckily I am not a multi-player game person, so I won't even be remotely tempted to purchase this game anytime soon.
That's just insane. Put away ALL of your other computer games boys, you will only have the time and energy to attempt to learn to play this one!
.
I hope World In Flames works out a lot better than Empires in Arms did. I will be waiting to see what kind of reception it gets before ever thinking about buying this one.
Edit: After reading on the forums over there that apparently the only purchase option is going to be physical copy + download, that will almost certainly price me out of buying the game even if it does get good reviews.
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on October 19, 2013, 10:24:20 AM
Take a look at the huge map and hardback manuals that come with the game.....impressive!
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3441852
But with this, I can only imagine what the cost of this game is going to be....$150$ $200....more.......luckily I am not a multi-player game person, so I won't even be remotely tempted to purchase this game anytime soon.
First
1) WTF is going on with that map. I understand it's likely a collectors edition and there are collectors who will want it, hell, I'd like to have a map of the game, but one that is useable. How many people are going to have the space to put that thing up unfolded? Gladly it's an optional item.
2) Nice looking manuals and apparently large print.
3) I'm not a multi player gamer - so no buy for me. Even when there's an AI - what are the chances that it's going to be even remotely good enough? The game is massive. There are lesser strategic games out there with a poor AI (thinking specifically HoI with it's invasions by Brazil on Japan and the like).
4) I LOVE the look of the game - pity there's no AI
I have a big question here - how does the game play out? So initially I believe there's 2 player support and the dev wants to put in up to 12 player support within 3 months. So if there are 2 players - do you actually play half the world?
And from a play perspective, I've never played the board game, but I hear the game has pulses, air, navy, army etc, etc, etc...now I remember watching Empire in Arms get released and I was mildly interested in it - but the ****storm that kicked up because the game was not suitable to pbem was intense. There are so many different factions and so many different events and pulses in the game...I don't know if it's true, but last I heard no-one had completed a game.
Also - remember these patches that screw things up and make you start again - I know that happened in EiA.
It looks a great game - I really like the look - but from a playability perspective, it's not my bag. I don't do MP and with no AI it's a no sale. Whilst an AI is promised, promises should not mean a full price product.
As usual someone mentioned about the "expected" price and was jumped on from a great height. As with previous releases and true to history, Matrix will likely wait until release to spring the price on people and totally destroy the release day for this game rather than announce the price and get the crap "HOW MUCH?" thread out the way before release.
I believe I read that the map actually comes in 24 sections, and is not one big 9' by 21' sheet.
In that case, and the fact the map is an additional purchase, it is impressive.
Still, one full map of useful size would have been nice and handy
Quote from: JudgeDredd on October 24, 2013, 01:53:39 AM
As usual someone mentioned about the "expected" price and was jumped on from a great height. As with previous releases and true to history, Matrix will likely wait until release to spring the price on people and totally destroy the release day for this game rather than announce the price and get the crap "HOW MUCH?" thread out the way before release.
Well I believe SPIEL 2013 ESSEN starts today and they were supposed to make 50 or so copies available at the event so my guess is we will hear some reports of what these folks had to pay (unless they are giving away free, couldn't tell by the news release).
It looks cool and I know people always talk about this game, but for me won't really matter because pure multiplayer games don't interest me and even more so this one seems like a huge monster game that will take a ton of time to play & learn. Simply don't have enough time in the day for something like this. Still will be fun reading people's impressions though.
+1 on all points
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3441857&mpage=2�
I admit it does look the biz - but lol
I hope there are alot of hardcore WiF gamers out there looking for a PC version
Quote from: JudgeDredd on October 24, 2013, 07:33:06 AM
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3441857&mpage=2�
I admit it does look the biz - but lol
I hope there are alot of hardcore WiF gamers out there looking for a PC version
Wow.. Yeah, that's going to pretty much be the total market for this. Won't find many others willing to take the lunge, especially sans AI and PBEM. The question is, are the hardcore people going to leave vassal and such?
That is beyond hardcore. I think Matrix just created a new market, "mega-niche wargame".
Some good news from Iain at Matrix (in the same thread) for some people - the map is around 1/2 the cost - and as the map is a separate item, you will not have to stump up 150 Euros - unless you want the map.
Actually the game is going to be more than 150 Euros because that is stated as the discounted prices at Essen.
But still - if you don't want the map - the game looks like it will skin you less than £100
Quote from: JudgeDredd on October 24, 2013, 09:43:15 AM
But still - if you don't want the map - the game looks like it will skin you less than £100
Sign me up then! :P
I know - for a head to head game that seems very steep.
I wonder if there'll be a demo :P
What I don't understand is Matrix have always said there will be digital download, physical and, in some circumstances, collectors editions of games - I guess the change here (physical copy only) is the cost of the manuals is so large that they simply HAVE to sell them and can't do it adhoc...therefore a physical copy is the only option.
Personally, I'm all for options. Digital Download for those that want it with a pdf, Physical with a pdf and Collectors Edition if they wish.
But that would mean potentially the price of the collectors edition being bigger because they couldn't order the bulk manuals - opting only to buy on a per order basis I guess.
Anyway - still out of my price range I think and even if it wasn't - no AI and h2h (netplay?) only automatically means it's not for me.
Also I saw how PBEM went for EiA and it wasn't pretty
Quote from: JudgeDredd on October 24, 2013, 10:31:03 AM
I know - for a head to head game that seems very steep.
I wonder if there'll be a demo :P
What I don't understand is Matrix have always said there will be digital download, physical and, in some circumstances, collectors editions of games - I guess the change here (physical copy only) is the cost of the manuals is so large that they simply HAVE to sell them and can't do it adhoc...therefore a physical copy is the only option.
Personally, I'm all for options. Digital Download for those that want it with a pdf, Physical with a pdf and Collectors Edition if they wish.
But that would mean potentially the price of the collectors edition being bigger because they couldn't order the bulk manuals - opting only to buy on a per order basis I guess.
Anyway - still out of my price range I think and even if it wasn't - no AI and h2h (netplay?) only automatically means it's not for me.
Also I saw how PBEM went for EiA and it wasn't pretty
Jd has spoken the magic combination of words.... "It's out of my price range, I won't get it"
Expect his review any day
^hahahaha!
lol
I was about to say "Check me out - saying I aint getting it" :P
However - H2H play doesn't interest me - it really doesn't. Ask Tuna - he's always trying to get me to MP and I always resist :)
That's too bad. It's been my universal experience that no AI can ever deliver the same level of fun as playing against other humans. That's been across all genres. Abstract strategy games, serious wargames, FPS's, RTS's and MMORPG's.
Quote from: Ubercat on October 24, 2013, 12:02:47 PM
That's too bad. It's been my universal experience that no AI can ever deliver the same level of fun as playing against other humans. That's been across all genres. Abstract strategy games, serious wargames, FPS's, RTS's and MMORPG's.
True, but this game is just so massive in time commitment, that H2H just seems impractical given that the small player base this will probably attract will be spread out over so many time zones, to say nothing of RL commitments, etc.
Probably shouldn't bother commenting anymore since no way I will likely ever purchase, but I just don't understand the reasoning that physical manuals are a necessity for this game. Why aren't they a necessity for other war games then that are also complicated? Everyone in the world has been moving to electronic books (Kindle, nook, etc.) so how can anyone say that physical books are necessary? Doesn't seem to make sense to me. Why should they care if a person has a harder time learning the game if using a PDF? Why don't they care about their other games having the same affect? War in the Pacific is pretty massive, why not force physical books for that one?
I don't buy it.
Quote from: JudgeDredd on October 24, 2013, 11:29:28 AM
lol
I was about to say "Check me out - saying I aint getting it" :P
However - H2H play doesn't interest me - it really doesn't. Ask Tuna - he's always trying to get me to MP and I always resist :)
LOL.. you asked me if I wanted to play.. I said yes!
Quote from: Tuna on October 24, 2013, 07:43:26 PM
Quote from: JudgeDredd on October 24, 2013, 11:29:28 AM
lol
I was about to say "Check me out - saying I aint getting it" :P
However - H2H play doesn't interest me - it really doesn't. Ask Tuna - he's always trying to get me to MP and I always resist :)
LOL.. you asked me if I wanted to play.. I said yes!
lol - Yes for CM - which I quickly bailed on - sorry. I had forgotten about that with my statement - I was remembering Rise of Flight (which I did enjoy when I tried it) and FSX and Iron Front.
I think the time zone is a problem, I'm often free when it's your lunchtime or busy doing dad stuff at the height of the day. It's difficult to get a game going.
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on October 24, 2013, 07:14:43 PM
Probably shouldn't bother commenting anymore since no way I will likely ever purchase, but I just don't understand the reasoning that physical manuals are a necessity for this game. Why aren't they a necessity for other war games then that are also complicated? Everyone in the world has been moving to electronic books (Kindle, nook, etc.) so how can anyone say that physical books are necessary? Doesn't seem to make sense to me. Why should they care if a person has a harder time learning the game if using a PDF? Why don't they care about their other games having the same affect? War in the Pacific is pretty massive, why not force physical books for that one?
I don't buy it.
i have a sorry feeling that its taken that long and cost that much that they need £300 for each copy of the game. Stupid and stubborn as they are i dont think even Matrix could expect to get away with that so theyve come up with a cunning plan to throw all kinds of other shit in there you have to pay for
^ exactly my sentiments. They HAVE to include the physical manuals to justify the cost.
Besides...and I'll likely get burned for this...but this an unfinished product being pushed out at a premium price to get it to market. From what I gather they are going to charge more for AI...I don't know if there are plans to charge for more than 2 player and PBEM.
QuoteI wonder if there'll be a demo
Certainly not. Matrix is not the company known for demos...they usually say a game is too complicated to be shown in a demo blah blah and PCWiF is easily the most complex if it ever comes out.
So I wonder....if physical manuals are so critical to playing, did all beta testers receive physical manuals during play testing? If not, how did they ever complete the testing without physically having them if purchasers must have them:)
They aren't a requirement. They're a way to justify a huge price for an over budget, under developed game. It doesn't have an AI. It doesn't have PBEM (and there are inherently problems with that anyway given the play style of the game). There are no more than 2 players allowed to play a HUGE game.
As UCG says, and I agree, they need to recoup the costs and therefore need to charge a shite load of money for a cut down computer game. They can't do that with the game itself...not without the above features at least. So they need other things there - and the manuals are it. I'm surprised they separated the map tbh. Maybe there's not a big enough profit margin in the map production. I don't know.
They are playing to the board game boys. No problem with that if that's what they've identified their market as.
I think the game looks amazing and I would love to have something like that in my library of games. But at somewhere close to £100 (including VAT in UK) for the game and then an additional charge for an AI addon - that is NOT a game I could own. And the play style sounds like a pita anyway, with pulses and turns and interventions (reaction phases). And we need to be brutally honest here - how good (anywhere near good) is an AI going to be for a game this scale? Many, many many companies have tried and failed on lesser games.
Alas they aren't targeting me anyway.
There'll be some impressions out from the boardgame lads soon - 50 copies go on sale at Essen tomorrow (today?...I think it's tomorrow).
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on October 25, 2013, 06:03:18 AM
So I wonder....if physical manuals are so critical to playing, did all beta testers receive physical manuals during play testing? If not, how did they ever complete the testing without physically having them if purchasers must have them:)
There's a "Rules as Coded" word doc that has been made available to the playtesters. I don't know and won't speculate on whether that is what will make it in to the hard back books or not.
I don't know why Matrix made the decision that you have to get the physical copy with the books. Perhaps (speculating) they have a great (and cheap) printing press arrangement made and by throwing in the nice hardbound rulebooks it "justifies" the $125 (or so) price for the game; A game that comes with no AI or Pbem support (at this time).
All pure speculation, I have no insider info.
Edit: Me and JD are on the same wave length this morning, posting the same thought at the same time. Today may be a strange one folks and if you never, ever hear from me again....well it's been real.
lol - I'm BEHIND YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
QuoteThey are playing to the board game boys. No problem with that if that's what they've identified their market as.
But that could be pretty much the problem. Gary already talked about how the board game wargamers (since I belong to this breed I can say I agree with him) look for something different than a PC port can provide. We want a certain level of transparency and control and I don't see this when I look at the pictures and the information they gave out so far. Learning complex boardgame consims is easier than to learn a complex PC game because the approach is different. I can study my thick ASL rulebook with all the tiny written rules and still can learn it quite easily, because I am in full control how to break down the massive amount of rules into something that works in my first scenarios. A game like WiF on the PC is a massive amount of rules behind a complex user interface and that's a huge obstacle. And a game this complex on the PC is most certainly having some issues with things that don't work or don't work right and all this gets in the way when I want to learn the actual 'game' behind all the technical stuff. Somehow I don't feel being addressed as part of the 'market'
because I come from the traditional wargaming corner...
^ interesting point - and in that case, I don't know who they are targeting.
But - as we're often told by Iain...they have the numbers. They have the data. They know what they're doing.
Who am I to argue. I'm just a gamer with money in my pocket that they don't want :P
its not a question of money being no option - if i needed it that much id get it - i just dont think its the game for me. Me and 5 friends with a crate of beer in a garage all weekend im all for - but a very lonely, soulless experience sat at your own pc with another guy on the side of the country/world
the massive advantage (if it does this) is the hard coded rules - JJdenver tried to teach barthheart and me over skype how to play and its massive to learn and then there is the 'you cant move that tile there this turn because XXX penalty from last turn', alpine troops move at 100% thru mountains, desert troops do not, planes take off with a 50% penalty in combat if blah blah blah...... IF thats all coded in and IF the UI tells you why you cant do A, or B or C it would be a brilliant learning tool for the board game or the PC game if and when it gets an AI - but its still an awfully pricey game
i wish good luck to all those guys who get it because theyve waited long enough, and i hope its what they wanted
Might as well ship the game counters. You got the hard copy map and manuals already. And computer software for remote play and rules enforcement.
Imagine setting up the map and counters in your "command center". Then log into the computer to resolve turns against your opponent. Then re-position the counters on your wall and dream of it the whole night while you wait for the next turn.
One of my "gripes" or turn-off's or what every you want to call it for PC games is the lack of ability to see the entire map and to take the whole situation in at once (this includes VASSAL as well). With this PC version of WiF being global, that means a LOT of scrolling or jump mapping. And as Grim says, you have an already very complicated wargame (WiF) to learn along with a very intricate looking GUI. Sure, the game may reinforce the rules but what all does that mean? Does it "beep" at you if you try to do an illegal move or does it give you a rules reference as to why you can't do a particular action at this particular time? I suspect that a lot of new players who buy the game will be hearing a lot of beeping soon.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/q71/s720x720/1375011_639670512720503_265139608_n.jpg)
The Master himself in Essen
who hell he?
I guess Harry Rowland - the creator of said game (boardgame?)?
Yes, the Lord of the final, final rules to the latest final version of final WiF (until a new version comes out) ;)
Another picture.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/1397938_639679272719627_1740968443_o.jpg)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/q71/s720x720/1377209_639673599386861_302065354_n.jpg)
They are actually selling advanced autographed copies of the computer game at that event.
I was reading some thread at the official forum and they mentioned the game can be played in solitaire mode. I wish I had the patience and ability to be completely neutral when playing a solitaire game....just not sure how I could realistically do that without cheating:) I know I would only be cheating myself, but can't imagine how I could draw a plan up for both sides and "forget" about it as I am playing both sides.
Thought I should re-post some of my comments from the Matrix forum here:
"Hi guys,
The Essen release is a special early access release. Since Harry Rowland would be at the show, we wanted to make sure to have some copies there so fans could get his signature and so that he could get a look at the physical product as well.
This release is very much about the physical product, in that we wanted to give WIF tabletop gamers the benefit of all the work done to bring WIF to the computer as well. Hence the hard-bound Rules as Coded, with all the clarifications and errata from Harry that we built into the game, as well as the first ever global playable same scale map for WIF. Whether you play the computer game or not, these are very cool. You of course also have the hard-bound two volume full color Player's Manual for the computer game and the DVD with the computer version of WIF for solitaire or online multiplayer play, but the whole package is intended to be a very unique and exceptional product that has both computer and tabletop value.
The maps are part of the Essen package, but for the full release in November they will be optional. You'll be able to purchase the three hard-bound volumes with DVD as one product and the maps as another. This is also intended to make it possible for WIF players who only want the map to order that or to order an extra copy of the computer game or an extra copy of the map without getting two of both. The three hardbound volumes + DVD will be at a lower price (about half) than the Essen package which includes the maps.
The maps are also in 24 sections, so while you may not have the space to assemble all 21 feet by 9 feet, you can certainly use the sections that are most useful to you within a more reasonable space.
Regards,
- Erik "
"We looked at it this way - this is primarily a game for tabletop WIF players. It is also an awesome computer wargame just as it is an awesome tabletop wargame, but without an AI in the initial release, that's a hard hill for many primarily computer wargamers to climb, who are used to AI releases. The WIF community, as a primarily tabletop community, is also used to getting a good physical package for their money. The work that went into WIF development and keeping it faithful to the tabletop game was beyond anything we've ever done before. Development-wise, this is about ten normal games rolled into one.
So our first thought was how to do justice to this game and give the WIF community something special. The hard-bound volumes, the first hard-bound large full color volumes Matrix Games has ever released, are the first part. The biggest wargame map possibly ever printed is the second part. We feel those are a key part of doing this release right. Removing the hard-bound volumes, even though they are costly to print, would not have resulted in a significantly reduced price due to the time that this was in development. By doing this we actually reduced our profit margin per unit as the planned price point has always been in this range. We decided to add in the manuals and the map pack to make it the best release possible.
Regards,
- Erik "
I would agree that targeting the boardgame player market is smart.
To put it another way, if this was a computer version of Pacific War or some other tabletop game that I really like, I'd have no problem getting a hardbound copy of the rules and such for it.
I bought the hardbound guide for Skyrim and it's beautiful, and it was about $50 if I remember correctly.
Quote from: JudgeDredd on October 25, 2013, 06:33:43 AM
But - as we're often told by Iain...they have the numbers. They have the data. They know what they're doing.
Who am I to argue. I'm just a gamer with money in my pocket that they don't want :P
;)
So its aimed at the boardgame guys, who have the map, who have the rules, and probably a big ass table to play it on - why in gods name would they buy this?
I don't think that's necessarily true.
I have World in Flames the boardgame and I don't have anywhere near the room to play it. Further, I don't know the rules very well; having the computer enforce the rules would be very welcome.
Quote from: undercovergeek on October 26, 2013, 02:08:27 AM
So its aimed at the boardgame guys, who have the map, who have the rules, and probably a big ass table to play it on - why in gods name would they buy this?
Because this enables them to play with people at the other side of the world. And also rules enforcement will make it easier to learn.
Right, but it doesn't ship with PBEM. Can you play real time with someone else, or is it just hotseat? I assumed just hotseat.
Quote from: Toonces on October 26, 2013, 02:16:54 AM
I don't think that's necessarily true.
I have World in Flames the boardgame and I don't have anywhere near the room to play it. Further, I don't know the rules very well; having the computer enforce the rules would be very welcome.
So you've spent a hundred off dollars on the boardgame and are now prepared to spend another hundred odd dollars on a 'support package' - if the original had been 200 dollars with a rule enforcing support package - would you have bought it?
Quote from: Toonces on October 26, 2013, 02:37:30 AM
Right, but it doesn't ship with PBEM. Can you play real time with someone else, or is it just hotseat? I assumed just hotseat.
You can play two player over netplay using Matrix own server system I believe or solitaire on release.
I love the manuals and in fact was one who argued with Matrix years ago about providing manuals. But I wasn't wanting them forced on people. I wanted the choice.
I'm sure these manuals are superb...but when you talk about a game this expensive, adding and removing things from the cart is very important. So forcing the purchase of the books is a tough call.
Also Erik - you mention the cost of the books being negligible and not going to affect the price of the game that much - well you need to talk to the other CEO because he wrote on your forum
Quote
If you think about the cost of a new hard backed game book - usually ~$40 each plus the cost of a printed map at that size - At least $100 and probably up to $400, the value for money on the physical part of the game is unbelievable. The physical items alone could have been valued at $200-$400.
I don't think you can play it both ways and stay being honest. They either cost a shed load or they don't and the cost of the game would've been reduced. I know they didn't cost $40 and that's not what he's saying - but he's proving a point by pointing out the large cost...a very clever marketing man is Mr McNeil.
Also - whilst I think paying for what a product is worth is totally fair, I'm not sure paying for what a product cost you to make is fair. It's not my fault (or any gamers fault) that it took the guy 10 years to make the game. To be completely honest I don't know what the hell he's been doing in 10 years. He could've programmed an hour a night for all I know and could be a bloody banker earning a shit load of cash.
The fact that he's not is neither here nor there - but charging people because something took this long to make does not = what the game is worth.
However - it's your business. But that kind of pricing structure isn't what I buy into. I buy games and pay the price that they are worth. I remember a time when that was Matrix policy - sell a game at a price that the game is worth regarding content, gameplay, structure and physical content...so now it's about how long it took to make? pfft.
I'm going to buy it ;) happy now UCG ;D
Quote from: JudgeDredd on October 26, 2013, 03:59:37 AM
I'm going to buy it ;) happy now UCG ;D
Hahahaaa!
You buckled like a belt!
:P
Like a cheap belt
How much is it anyway?
>100 whatever you use
Take away all the cost discussions, I looked at the one AAR over there and some of the info in the threads....I have no idea how anyone can wrap there heads around a game that appears to be this complex to play. I imagine there is some satisfaction in that type of game for people, but I find myself moving away to less complex games since the others just end up sitting on my hard drive. Plus, has anyone seen how long a game will take to play with another player? Has any of the beta testers completed a full game yet? I can only imagine it will take countless hours and if I am correct, both of you have to be online at the same time to play it? Just can't imagine two people finding that much time to play it at the same time. I guess the board game players somehow find time to do it, so again must really be targeted for those players.
I'll remain firmly on the sideline buying my 100 games that I will get for the same price during the holiday sales:)
Quote from: undercovergeek on October 26, 2013, 04:53:52 AM
Quote from: JudgeDredd on October 26, 2013, 03:59:37 AM
I'm going to buy it ;) happy now UCG ;D
Seriously???
No - but I thought I should keep my options open. ;D
There is a charm about it - the manuals look great and I love the look of the board and the counters - those are definite draws for me
But the negatives are
1. Payment required for AI
2. Payment for more than 2 player and PBEM? (<-I don't know if this is the case, but I haven't heard anything to the contrary)
3. The game looks MASSIVE to play with 2 or more players - how the hell do you have the time/stamina to play it solitaire? Talk about losing the rest of your life
4. Price
I have to say, I have mentioned the price and the fact that the manuals are forced on you - but I would likely buy the manuals anyway if I bought the game...they look smashing...I'm just against it being forced on players.
I remember the fight to try and get Matrix to provide printed manuals. There were loads of people against the idea and loads for. Matrix eventually took the view that they would provide game in 3 flavours
* Digital Express download with PDF manual
* Physical copy with box, disk and PDF manual
* Collectors Edition copy with box, disk, manuals in PDF and printed (colour)
Suddenly there's no option for a Digital Express download - just physical and printed manuals
If an AI addon was free, I'd likely make a purchase
Quote from: JudgeDredd on October 26, 2013, 03:22:23 AM
Quote from: Toonces on October 26, 2013, 02:37:30 AM
Right, but it doesn't ship with PBEM. Can you play real time with someone else, or is it just hotseat? I assumed just hotseat.
You can play two player over netplay using Matrix own server system I believe or solitaire on release.
Correct - the release includes internet play using our routing server (makes it very easy to find opponents and connect as it includes a lobby and forum and none of the issues of non-server internet play - no configuring ports or firewalls, etc.) for 2 players as well as solitaire and hotseat. PBEM and AI are in the works for a future release, I expect PBEM will not take long, AI is well underway but a major project and will take a while.
QuoteI love the manuals and in fact was one who argued with Matrix years ago about providing manuals. But I wasn't wanting them forced on people. I wanted the choice.
I'm sure these manuals are superb...but when you talk about a game this expensive, adding and removing things from the cart is very important. So forcing the purchase of the books is a tough call.
Also Erik - you mention the cost of the books being negligible and not going to affect the price of the game that much - well you need to talk to the other CEO because he wrote on your forum
I never said that. If you re-read my post, I say "Removing the hard-bound volumes,
even though they are costly to print, would not have resulted in a significantly reduced price due to the time that this was in development. By doing this we actually reduced our profit margin per unit as the planned price point has always been in this range. We decided to add in the manuals and the map pack to make it the best release possible."
I do agree that these three volumes and the map pack, if published by many other companies, might cost the same or more even with no massive computer game included.
The manuals are expensive, the maps are expensive. We decided that given the game and the market, they were necessary to do this release justice. The maps are optional - if we did this to jack up the price, we could have made those mandatory as well. We decided to print hard-bound large manuals in three volumes because of several reasons, as I explained in my post above. In short, this game in this current release is more about the WIF tabletop community than the computer wargaming community. Although it is just as awesome on the computer as on the tabletop, computer wargamers as a group have different expectations than tabletop wargamers, despite the fact that there is a lot of crossover. It is also a very complex game and we feel from our own experience that the hard-bound reference manuals are not only a nice thing for tabletop gamers, but a necessity to have to learn the game properly (along with the interactive, non-interactive and video tutorials included in the game). The version we sell will have a download and there are PDFs of the manuals, we just won't sell the download version alone.
If we had made the decision to offer a download version, the price would have been about the same as what we are offering with the physical+download. The cost of the game with the hard-bound manuals is at the same price we had always planned for WIF, with or without these exceptional manuals and maps. I will reiterate that internally we decided to reduce our margin per unit to make sure we gave the WIF community the release they wanted in terms of the physical materials. We did not increase the planned price after deciding to add in the physical materials. We decided that the physical materials were a significant enough play and education aid that to deliver the game without them would diminish the release.
Our logic may not be what people are used to from computer game companies, but we really do try to make each game as good as possible for its community and market.
The rest of your post was based on a false premise, so I'll just say that our pricing policy hasn't changed.
Regards,
- Erik
Quote from: JudgeDredd on October 26, 2013, 07:06:29 AM
1. Payment required for AI
AI is the only thing we're currently expecting to require a paid expansion of some kind, as it's at least another year of development work. Everything else is expected to be a free post-release update, including more than 2 players in internet play (the code supports 6, but we need more testing on that before we can release that upgrade). PBEM is planned to be supported, but again needs some more testing and we want to see how internet play goes as we see that as the best way to play WIF given the turn/phase structure.
Regards,
- Erik
Quote from: ERutins on October 26, 2013, 11:29:32 AM
Quote from: JudgeDredd on October 26, 2013, 07:06:29 AM
1. Payment required for AI
AI is the only thing we're currently expecting to require a paid expansion of some kind, as it's at least another year of development work.
Regards,
- Erik
Whew.....I won't have to worry about this game for at least another year.....won't be interested until an AI is available.
Quote from: ERutins on October 26, 2013, 11:26:39 AM
Quote from: JudgeDredd on October 26, 2013, 03:22:23 AM
Quote from: Toonces on October 26, 2013, 02:37:30 AM
Right, but it doesn't ship with PBEM. Can you play real time with someone else, or is it just hotseat? I assumed just hotseat.
You can play two player over netplay using Matrix own server system I believe or solitaire on release.
Correct - the release includes internet play using our routing server (makes it very easy to find opponents and connect as it includes a lobby and forum and none of the issues of non-server internet play - no configuring ports or firewalls, etc.) for 2 players as well as solitaire and hotseat. PBEM and AI are in the works for a future release, I expect PBEM will not take long, AI is well underway but a major project and will take a while.
QuoteI love the manuals and in fact was one who argued with Matrix years ago about providing manuals. But I wasn't wanting them forced on people. I wanted the choice.
I'm sure these manuals are superb...but when you talk about a game this expensive, adding and removing things from the cart is very important. So forcing the purchase of the books is a tough call.
Also Erik - you mention the cost of the books being negligible and not going to affect the price of the game that much - well you need to talk to the other CEO because he wrote on your forum
I never said that. If you re-read my post, I say "Removing the hard-bound volumes, even though they are costly to print, would not have resulted in a significantly reduced price due to the time that this was in development. By doing this we actually reduced our profit margin per unit as the planned price point has always been in this range. We decided to add in the manuals and the map pack to make it the best release possible."
I do agree that these three volumes and the map pack, if published by many other companies, might cost the same or more even with no massive computer game included.
The manuals are expensive, the maps are expensive. We decided that given the game and the market, they were necessary to do this release justice. The maps are optional - if we did this to jack up the price, we could have made those mandatory as well. We decided to print hard-bound large manuals in three volumes because of several reasons, as I explained in my post above. In short, this game in this current release is more about the WIF tabletop community than the computer wargaming community. Although it is just as awesome on the computer as on the tabletop, computer wargamers as a group have different expectations than tabletop wargamers, despite the fact that there is a lot of crossover. It is also a very complex game and we feel from our own experience that the hard-bound reference manuals are not only a nice thing for tabletop gamers, but a necessity to have to learn the game properly (along with the interactive, non-interactive and video tutorials included in the game). The version we sell will have a download and there are PDFs of the manuals, we just won't sell the download version alone.
If we had made the decision to offer a download version, the price would have been about the same as what we are offering with the physical+download. The cost of the game with the hard-bound manuals is at the same price we had always planned for WIF, with or without these exceptional manuals and maps. I will reiterate that internally we decided to reduce our margin per unit to make sure we gave the WIF community the release they wanted in terms of the physical materials. We did not increase the planned price after deciding to add in the physical materials. We decided that the physical materials were a significant enough play and education aid that to deliver the game without them would diminish the release.
Our logic may not be what people are used to from computer game companies, but we really do try to make each game as good as possible for its community and market.
The rest of your post was based on a false premise, so I'll just say that our pricing policy hasn't changed.
Regards,
- Erik
if this was an initial release just to be of interest to the boardgamers of the WIF community, why not just wait one more year and have it released with absolutely everything that would satisfy the whole community - after 10 years of development how much more pressure can you have been under to release it early (which you have to admit, it obviously has, you can gloss it as 'for the boardgamers' but under that is 'not for anyone else because it isnt finished)?
I think because this is essentially a port of a boardgame it is fair to say that it is targeted to board wargamers without an AI. Sure, it's also not finished, but let's be honest with ourselves here. We've already had a lot of discussion about how complex the game is; just how can we expect an AI to be programmed for this game with any competence quickly?
For many people this game, with the books, in its current state is a great bargain. Why wait to release it then? Really, I don't see any issues here gents. Matrix is giving you a lot of value for your dollar with this one.
I'm a little surprised. Not a lot, but a little, by the attitude here. For a site that touts itself as for Grognards I'm surprised that there aren't 4 or 5 of us all with credit cards out, organizing a massive online wargame using this engine. Seriously. This is a wonderful opportunity to game WW2 on a massive scale, with other wargamers, and I'm not hearing any discussion on that.
I think maybe the discussion is focusing too much on the box, and not enough on the potential inside.
Quote from: Toonces on October 26, 2013, 01:28:34 PM
For a site that touts itself as for Grognards I'm surprised that there aren't 4 or 5 of us all with credit cards out, organizing a massive online wargame using this engine.
because only 2 can play it at a time - unless ive misread that
and im not saying Matrix or Iain or Eric are, but for me personally ive had enough of the s*** that proceeds very expensive games releases - like im being done a favour it costs that much. And this one in particular has been going 10 years - as you say, how long does it take to program a competent AI challenge? if weve been told everything it does in its current state then why not by the board game and we'll all vassel - because i dont see anytime in my calendar for a year long head to head with any of you guys! much as id like to
Quote from: undercovergeek on October 26, 2013, 01:55:29 PM
Quote from: Toonces on October 26, 2013, 01:28:34 PM
For a site that touts itself as for Grognards I'm surprised that there aren't 4 or 5 of us all with credit cards out, organizing a massive online wargame using this engine.
because only 2 can play it at a time - unless ive misread that
and im not saying Matrix or Iain or Eric are, but for me personally ive had enough of the s*** that proceeds very expensive games releases - like im being done a favour it costs that much. And this one in particular has been going 10 years - as you say, how long does it take to program a competent AI challenge? if weve been told everything it does in its current state then why not by the board game and we'll all vassel - because i dont see anytime in my calendar for a year long head to head with any of you guys! much as id like to
+1
Well, likewise I'm getting awfully tired of the bitching about the price of Matrix's releases every time a new game comes out.
Maybe I'm in the minority here, but Matrix offers this complex game with an extraordinary development time invested, pimps it out with optional hardback books and maps, and all anyone can do is complain because gucci add-ons are being offered?
I'm just not seeing where the controversy is. Maybe buying the boardgame and playing by Vassal is the best route for you and others. Certainly nobody is forcing anyone to buy the game, nor pimp it out.
Quote from: Toonces on October 26, 2013, 04:59:36 PM
Well, likewise I'm getting awfully tired of the bitching about the price of Matrix's releases every time a new game comes out.
Maybe I'm in the minority here, but Matrix offers this complex game with an extraordinary development time invested, pimps it out with optional hardback books and maps, and all anyone can do is complain because gucci add-ons are being offered?
I'm just not seeing where the controversy is. Maybe buying the boardgame and playing by Vassal is the best route for you and others. Certainly nobody is forcing anyone to buy the game, nor pimp it out.
Toonces, im not mad, or complaining - i dont want the game, ive done my pennance with WitP AE. It isnt the extras, the add ons, the flashy bits it isnt anything at all to do with that, it isnt even the price per se. It is simply this - i want marketing executives to shut the hell up with their piss poor excuses for high prices and treat gamers with a bit of respect and just explain why it costs so much, dont hide it behind marketing buzz word shite, glossy maps and manuals. How does CA (without argung about the state of the game on entry to market) create a Hollywood blockbuster in maybe 3 or 4 years, with a massive multi million pound budget and throw it onto the market for the reasonable going rate of £40?
They price the game at the point where they think it will maximize their profits. Really, that should be all they say and leave it at that.
They're a business; it's what I expect them to do.
Somebody at Matrix gets paid a bunch of money to do their market analysis, run their math programs, and spit out some price point for a game. It can't be much more difficult than that.
Quote from: Toonces on October 26, 2013, 05:24:56 PM
They price the game at the point where they think it will maximize their profits. Really, that should be all they say and leave it at that.
They're a business; it's what I expect them to do.
Somebody at Matrix gets paid a bunch of money to do their market analysis, run their math programs, and spit out some price point for a game. It can't be much more difficult than that.
im not sure a game in dev for 10 years fits within most of the math program price calculators!
its cool - im just been grumpy, ive been too busy
Well, it doesn't take a genius marketing type to figure out they'd sell a boatload more copies if the game shipped with an AI, and didn't require purchasing the books. Then again, this may speak to their confidence in ever having a working AI.
My speculation is Matrix is not going to, nor anticipate having a big ROI for MWiF; that is assuming that *somebody* has been getting paid *something* for all of this coding for all of this time. Kicking in the hardbound rulebooks is a very nice move by Erik and Matrix. I again speculate that the reason for that is to make up for the lack of AI and pbem in the game as coded at the moment.
MWiF isn't going to appeal to a large market. It's big, complex, long and did I mention complex? That notwithstanding that it will have no AI or multiple multi-player/pbem support until later. A boardgame to PC game port that *should* of had some good numbers was computer Conflict of Heroes. I have no idea how many copies of that sold but I'm not hearing a lot of chatter about it so I don't think that it was wildly popular. I would suspect that MWiF would sell even many less copies and the work on it has been going on for ages. Perhaps the coding team (coder?) is just looking to make straight money off the sales and has been doing all of this coding part time on his time. If that is the case, I tip my hat to him for having the dedication to the game and sticking with trying to put something out there that allows people to play WiF with rules enforcement.
Still, if the hardbound books come in at a somewhat hefty cost and provided that Matrix doesn't anticipate making any/much money off of shipping costs, then I'm a bit confused as to why there isn't four purchasing options: digital download (only), digital download with physical copy, digital download with physical copy plus the hardbound books and finally all the bells and whistles included the printed maps. If the digital download only option were available for say $60, surely more copies of the game would sell in its entirety than not having that as an option. Then again, if they already have a warehouse full of these hardbound books (for some reason), then they've got to move them and by making them a mandatory purchase option would be the way to do that. Isn't there a PC game that covers "Video Game Mogul" like game out there? MWiF would be a good "scenario" for *that* game I would think. :)
Erik, I know that you're reading. I personally appreciate that Matrix is even going out there and taking the risk to bring classic boardgames to the PC. Thank you for doing that. I honestly hope that MWiF turns out to be a big hit some day and that it does continue to grow with added AI and multi-multiplayer support.
Quote from: GJK on October 26, 2013, 05:35:13 PM
My speculation is Matrix is not going to, nor anticipate having a big ROI for MWiF; that is assuming that *somebody* has been getting paid *something* for all of this coding for all of this time. Kicking in the hardbound rulebooks is a very nice move by Erik and Matrix. I again speculate that the reason for that is to make up for the lack of AI and pbem in the game as coded at the moment.
MWiF isn't going to appeal to a large market. It's big, complex, long and did I mention complex? That notwithstanding that it will have no AI or multiple multi-player/pbem support until later. A boardgame to PC game port that *should* of had some good numbers was computer Conflict of Heroes. I have no idea how many copies of that sold but I'm not hearing a lot of chatter about it so I don't think that it was wildly popular. I would suspect that MWiF would sell even many less copies and the work on it has been going on for ages. Perhaps the coding team (coder?) is just looking to make straight money off the sales and has been doing all of this coding part time on his time. If that is the case, I tip my hat to him for having the dedication to the game and sticking with trying to put something out there that allows people to play WiF with rules enforcement.
Still, if the hardbound books come in at a somewhat hefty cost and provided that Matrix doesn't anticipate making any/much money off of shipping costs, then I'm a bit confused as to why there isn't four purchasing options: digital download (only), digital download with physical copy, digital download with physical copy plus the hardbound books and finally all the bells and whistles included the printed maps. If the digital download only option were available for say $60, surely more copies of the game would sell in its entirety than not having that as an option. Then again, if they already have a warehouse full of these hardbound books (for some reason), then they've got to move them and by making them a mandatory purchase option would be the way to do that. Isn't there a PC game that covers "Video Game Mogul" like game out there? MWiF would be a good "scenario" for *that* game I would think. :)
Erik, I know that you're reading. I personally appreciate that Matrix is even going out there and taking the risk to bring classic boardgames to the PC. Thank you for doing that. I honestly hope that MWiF turns out to be a big hit some day and that it does continue to grow with added AI and multi-multiplayer support.
I think it's great what they're trying to do, I just wish it had an AI... one at least good enough to provide a challenge to average players. I'd gladly pay for the hardcover books in that case. But I'm not going to pay *until* the AI is out. The developer seems like a really good guy, and i'm sure he thinks he can create a good AI in a relatively short period of time. But I also bet he never figured he'd still be working to release the game towards the end of 2013.
Edit: the cool thing about the books is that you won't have to worry about them becoming obsolete easily, since the game is based on an existing ruleset. Many other games' physical manuals, like WitE, WitP, or any Paradox game for example, are useless after a while.
Quote from: Toonces on October 26, 2013, 05:24:56 PM
They price the game at the point where they think it will maximize their profits. Really, that should be all they say and leave it at that.
They're a business; it's what I expect them to do.
Somebody at Matrix gets paid a bunch of money to do their market analysis, run their math programs, and spit out some price point for a game. It can't be much more difficult than that.
I had hoped price could be discussed (among other things) here - as you most certainly cannot discuss the price over there.
And my beef with the price is neither here nor there - I just lolled a bit when I saw it. I have already said I love the look of the game and the manuals look incredible. It's all the bollox around it. I have grown over the years to absolutely DETEST marketing speak. It is and always will be the bane of my life.
But - if that's all I have to worry myself with, I'm doing a damn site better than most.
Quote from: JudgeDredd on October 26, 2013, 02:05:02 PM
Quote from: undercovergeek on October 26, 2013, 01:55:29 PM
Quote from: Toonces on October 26, 2013, 01:28:34 PM
For a site that touts itself as for Grognards I'm surprised that there aren't 4 or 5 of us all with credit cards out, organizing a massive online wargame using this engine.
because only 2 can play it at a time - unless ive misread that
and im not saying Matrix or Iain or Eric are, but for me personally ive had enough of the s*** that proceeds very expensive games releases - like im being done a favour it costs that much. And this one in particular has been going 10 years - as you say, how long does it take to program a competent AI challenge? if weve been told everything it does in its current state then why not by the board game and we'll all vassel - because i dont see anytime in my calendar for a year long head to head with any of you guys! much as id like to
+1
+2
Quote from: Toonces on October 26, 2013, 01:28:34 PM
For many people this game, with the books, in its current state is a great bargain. Why wait to release it then? Really, I don't see any issues here gents. Matrix is giving you a lot of value for your dollar with this one.
That's pretty much it - for the WIF community, it's ready. We said from the start that his is a unique and unusual release - it's exceptional as a wargame, but it's not your run of the mill computer wargame release in any respect. For WIF fans, it's a great release with great value.
For those with price concerns, you want to buy the full board game instead, feel free, that will run you $200+. I'm not trying to tell anyone that they should or shouldn't buy it, I'm just explaining what this release is and is not and what it offers. I've seen a lot of false conjecture and I thought it would be best to clarify.
Regards,
- Erik
Quote from: undercovergeek on October 26, 2013, 01:55:29 PM
and im not saying Matrix or Iain or Eric are, but for me personally ive had enough of the s*** that proceeds very expensive games releases - like im being done a favour it costs that much. And this one in particular has been going 10 years - as you say, how long does it take to program a competent AI challenge? if weve been told everything it does in its current state then why not by the board game and we'll all vassel - because i dont see anytime in my calendar for a year long head to head with any of you guys! much as id like to
Indeed I've never said it's a favour to you and I'm not sure when anyone in Matrix has suggested that, I'm just explaining what the release is and what our pricing policy is - I don't get where this is coming from.
The programming took as long as it did because of the game itself. This is hard to explain to anyone who has not played WIF, but it really is an incredibly complex game to faithfully adapt to the computer. The developer worked on average 12 hour days for those years just programming WIF and testing it to get it to this point and I don't believe it could have been done faster with as much accuracy to the boardgame.
Regards,
- Erik
Quote from: undercovergeek on October 26, 2013, 05:13:09 PM
Toonces, im not mad, or complaining - i dont want the game, ive done my pennance with WitP AE. It isnt the extras, the add ons, the flashy bits it isnt anything at all to do with that, it isnt even the price per se. It is simply this - i want marketing executives to shut the hell up with their piss poor excuses for high prices and treat gamers with a bit of respect and just explain why it costs so much, dont hide it behind marketing buzz word shite, glossy maps and manuals. How does CA (without argung about the state of the game on entry to market) create a Hollywood blockbuster in maybe 3 or 4 years, with a massive multi million pound budget and throw it onto the market for the reasonable going rate of £40?
That's a classic apples to oranges comparison in so many respects.
First, I'm not a marketing executive, but when I see questions and bad information, I'll chime in to help explain what we were thinking. To the best of my knowledge, I was treating everyone here with respect, but also trying to clear up misconceptions and false assumptions.
Second, CA would never take on a computer adaptation of World in Flames and comparing extremely niche mega-wargames to AAA titles that are aimed at the mass market in terms of development time, development cost and price is a non-starter.
Regards,
- Erik
I'm usually in Matrix corner when it comes to pricing but it looks like someone has jumped the shark on this title.
I reserve the right to change my mind but these are the concerns I have.
Charging for an AI? Wow. :-[
If you believe the chatter the game is possibly overpriced considering it wasn't built from scratch and a remake of a board game. Too many hands in the cookie jar?
Extras look good on the book case but as a computer gamer I'm more interested in what is on my screen.
Compared to some of the art included in other Matrix, Slitherine titles I believe the images posted on the interface this game is a step below.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi42.tinypic.com%2F2rcu79x.jpg&hash=db9863504d10c22670e112ef5a4096866925fe0c)
here is the presentation at the Spiel 2013 in Essen ... I had the 3book-box in my hand and it weights more then a loaded M9!
...and with the maps you can turn your man-cave into a personal Wolfsschanze
(...but without a decent AI, its just not my cup of tea, it would be just a collectors item to me, i usually prefer games with smaller units -down to tanks and squads- on a narrow hex-grid)
One of the points I've been trying to communicate is that this game itself is not like our other games. From a computer wargamer's perspective, I completely agree this is a hard sell. I think we're likely to sell far more copies to computer wargamers once the AI is available. From a WIF tabletop wargamer's perspective, I think this release makes much more sense. So I understand that a pure computer wargamer will have some trouble connecting with this release - that's our challenge, to both make the WIF community happy and explain what is cool about this to the computer wargaming community.
Some of the responses here are remarkably cynical. I've tried to explain that the physical package does not exist in order to jack up the price for computer wargamers, but rather to make this release what it should be for WIF gamers who've wanted a computer version for 20 years. As with all our releases, we respect that they will not be for everyone, but I do ask that some of the cynicism be reconsidered. If you think about this from the perspective of a long-time WIF gamer, this release has a lot to offer, even if it's not everyone's cup of tea.
I will say that I hope this release, either in its current form or once AI is available, does introduce more computer wargamers to WIF. WIF is a niche even within tabletop wargames as it took a lot of investment of time, money and space to get into it. However, similar to games like War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition for the computer, once you get into it it can become your only game for a long while; it's that good and is revolutionary in many ways still to this day.
Regards,
- Erik
Erik, any vague and nonbinding estimate as to when PBEM and the AI will be ready? I know that it is a hard question to answer due to so many variables but I'm more interested in seeing the rough timeline so I can judge if and when I'd be investing in this game. If the PBEM option is only a few months away then that would go a long way toward making this game a buy sooner rather than later. Also, I'm guessing that the AI version would be a new release when the time comes. Will there be a low priced upgrade/addon option be available to those who get this version? If not, will there be a substantial discount upon repurchase?
Also, I know this is a long shot but any plans for an OSX or Linux version?
Quote from: Staggerwing on October 27, 2013, 01:47:05 PM
Erik, any vague and nonbinding estimate as to when PBEM and the AI will be ready? I know that it is a hard question to answer due to so many variables but I'm more interested in seeing the rough timeline so I can judge if and when I'd be investing in this game. If the PBEM option is only a few months away then that would go a long way toward making this game a buy sooner rather than later. Also, I'm guessing that the AI version would be a new release when the time comes. Will there be a low priced upgrade/addon option be available to those who get this version? If not, will there be a substantial discount upon repurchase?
I'll be able to answer that much better in a few weeks, but my best guess right now is about a year for AI and PBEM sooner than that. I should also add that we decided on internet play as the multiplayer mode in the initial release because it suits WIF better than PBEM, though we do plan on having PBEM support. First will come the free upgrade to six players for internet play. The AI will not require anyone to buy a new replacement release, it will be a reasonably priced add-on for the current release. What is being released now is the base game, which will continue to be the supported release. The AI will effectively be an optional add-on for those who want it but I expect we'll create a new combined base release with AI once that's available as a convenience to help new customers.
QuoteAlso, I know this is a long shot but any plans for an OSX or Linux version?
Nope, sorry. It runs fine on Boot Camp though, might work through emulation on Linux as well, but not sure about that.
Regards,
- Erik
Fwiw Erik I think the game looks great...and the manuals.
I was disappointed in the enforced manual inclusion, no digital download and the "aimed at boardgamers" statement. I wasn't overly surprised at the price
What about Staggerwings question 're the cost of the AI...Will it cost less if someone has already bought the base game or will it it cost what it'll cost?
Man, I'm not going to lie. I wish there was a hardbound manual like that for War in the Pacific: AE. I have the paperback manual that came with the physical copy- one of the few physical copies I have bought- but damn, that hardbound stuff is just the cat's meow. I'm having serious rulebook envy here. 8)
I hadn't given much thought to purchasing computer WiF until this recent discussion. Given the chubby I'm sporting following the manual/map picks I will be sure to keep close tabs on the AI development.
I was aware of the LONG struggle to develop this product by the Australian Design Group and would occasionally check the ADG website to see if the project still had a pulse. Can't say that I ever expected it to make it this far. I'm still somewhat skeptical that a challenging AI is even possible but would love to be surprised.
I'm pretty sure the guy who programmed this lives somewhere near me here on Oahu. ;D
He's definitely in Honolulu somewhere.
Here's a question - can you stack units? In all the pictures I've seen, I have not seen one stacked unit...not even air unit sharing the same hex as land units.
QuoteOne of the points I've been trying to communicate is that this game itself is not like our other games. From a computer wargamer's perspective, I completely agree this is a hard sell. I think we're likely to sell far more copies to computer wargamers once the AI is available. From a WIF tabletop wargamer's perspective, I think this release makes much more sense. So I understand that a pure computer wargamer will have some trouble connecting with this release - that's our challenge, to both make the WIF community happy and explain what is cool about this to the computer wargaming community.
I somehow fail to understand this business model. Wouldn't it be wiser to aim for a release version of the game that is able to widen the target audience while satisfying the core audience? Why not waiting one more year and bring it out with all features incl. AI and PbEM and see who's buying it? Why not making different versions available for different users? Digital download plus rules in pdf, CD version with pdf rules, CD version with hardcover rules etc..why not let the gamer decide what he wants and needs? This would probably allow you to sell it even to those who might be just interested in it and who could be convinced by the completeness of the product instead of rushing out a version of the game now that is in work for 10 years. Doesn't make any sense from a business perspective imo...
Quote from: Grimnirsson on October 28, 2013, 12:44:38 PM
QuoteOne of the points I've been trying to communicate is that this game itself is not like our other games. From a computer wargamer's perspective, I completely agree this is a hard sell. I think we're likely to sell far more copies to computer wargamers once the AI is available. From a WIF tabletop wargamer's perspective, I think this release makes much more sense. So I understand that a pure computer wargamer will have some trouble connecting with this release - that's our challenge, to both make the WIF community happy and explain what is cool about this to the computer wargaming community.
I somehow fail to understand this business model. Wouldn't it be wiser to aim for a release version of the game that is able to widen the target audience while satisfying the core audience? Why not waiting one more year and bring it out with all features incl. AI and PbEM and see who's buying it? Why not making different versions available for different users? Digital download plus rules in pdf, CD version with pdf rules, CD version with hardcover rules etc..why not let the gamer decide what he wants and needs? This would probably allow you to sell it even to those who might be just interested in it and who could be convinced by the completeness of the product instead of rushing out a version of the game now that is in work for 10 years. Doesn't make any sense from a business perspective imo...
Cynical answer: They aren't sure PBEM will work well, and that a capable AI is potentially years away at best.
Realistic answer: They want to get some kind of return on investment, to help fund additional features... If sales are too low, maybe just punt.
Fair enough, but if they want to get some kind of return on investment, to help fund additional features as you say, then it would make even more sense to have several versions of the game available to target all potential buyers.
IIRC: there will be all kind of versions available. the printed books and the physical map-pack are both optional
and the non-AI-version purchasers now will get a discount on the AI-version (so its like buying an AI-module) in the future...
Actually playing WiF -in whatever format - seams to be more a way of life then just (war)gaming
I got told there are ppl out there, who play the whole map in 3 vs 3 teams as a boardgame the full war to the very end in several days, deadly serious and bring their opening moves -just like chess- already pedefined and smarted out on paper to speed up the procedures in the beginning.
Quotethere will be all kind of versions available.
Ok, then I stand corrected on this one, but still - bringing out the game without AI and PbEM is the wrong move imho.
Quote from: MikeGER on October 28, 2013, 04:34:04 PM
IIRC: there will be all kind of versions available. the printed books and the physical map-pack are both optional
Pretty sure only optional item will be the maps...books are required. This thread seems to indicate the same.
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3451354
I think there may be a plan in all of this. It appears at this point that the product at this time is aimed at board gamers. The computer in this is primarily used as a game assist and rule enforcer. If it works well at this, perhaps some of the board gamers would be willing to give the AI a try when it comes out. If that works well, perhaps a good number of those people would be willing to try other computer games, thereby bringing in a few more souls into our hobby.
However the AI is going to have to be really good, as most of the WiF players are probably very serious players and a weak AI will turn them off really quickly.
Actually I have to wonder how many WiF players currently deal in computer gaming. It sounds like WiF probably sucks in all their free time. Did Matrix do some kind of market research on this issue? I'd really like to know what they found out if indeed they did some.
Manuals are a part of the "base" game purchase.
I also haven't heard anything regarding a discount for early adopters of the game - just that an AI will be available in about a year and will cost.
I'd like to know the answer to my question re stacks if anyone has any knowledge of it...and also, given this game was for sale at Essen at the weekend, I thought there would be a fresh AAR showing up or perhaps even first impressions.
Quote from: JudgeDredd on October 28, 2013, 06:35:20 PM
I'd like to know the answer to my question re stacks if anyone has any knowledge of it...and also, given this game was for sale at Essen at the weekend, I thought there would be a fresh AAR showing up or perhaps even first impressions.
Although older posts seems to indicate stacks....
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2147250&mpage=1&key=Stacks�
I stand corrected
The number does seem to signify a stack. I had presumed it would be done "the normal way" where you could see the units offset under each other.
Thanks GR
Quote from: Grimnirsson on October 28, 2013, 04:37:58 PM
Quotethere will be all kind of versions available.
Ok, then I stand corrected on this one, but still - bringing out the game without AI and PbEM is the wrong move imho.
There are plans for all versions but until they are released they are just that... Plans.
I didn't realize no PBEM either. I'll play a wait and see to view where this game is at when the dust settles. Using just my criteria for game buying the program is not complete if it's missing PBEM and AI.
I like the way that ZunTzu does the drop shadows and counter stacking. I'd of liked to of seen MWiF adopt something like this instead of the number above the counter. Here's a screenshot from the gamebox that I did for John Prados' Third Reich:
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.garykrockover.com%2Fuploads%2FJP3R-ZunTzu-Final.jpg&hash=aeac2f645e9d1497030ea77e359311fa1a72cb43)
Very nice Gary :)
Quote from: Grimnirsson on October 29, 2013, 04:46:52 AM
Very nice Gary :)
Thanks. The map I drew, the counters are scans of the original countersheets. I just always liked the drop shadow and stacking in ZunTzu gameboxes. It really looks like a game on the table and a picture was taken. Anyways....
QuoteBut that's not all that was new. To celebrate the release of the digital version of World in Flames - the King of all Monster Games - Slitherine had invited over Harry Rowland, one of the original designers of the boardgame, for a meet & greet session with the fans who could get their exclusive game with printed maps signed by him. This game is not for the faint of heart and after speaking with several fans I got a glimpse of what this game means to them: a real grognard challenge to dwarf all other challenges.
hm...no word about the price...
http://wargamer.com/article/3465/event-coverage-spiel-2013-a-convention-report (http://wargamer.com/article/3465/event-coverage-spiel-2013-a-convention-report)
Very quiet at Matrix re this game bearing in mind there were 50 copies for sale :-\
To get my fix on Grand Strategy, I reinstalled HoI III and Semper Fi last night - and quickly realised why I dropped it. I loaded the Barbarossa quick start fight and within seconds of starting it - I got like 40 messages saying I was being attacked.
I get it - I can switch them off. I get it - I want to know. There's no middle ground...I want to know when I'm being attacked and where - but don't want 40 messages!
But it just reminded me what a pita it was. Came out and played - Sid Meyers Ace Patrol ;D
Is anyone here going to sell their soul and buy this on Friday? Or is anyone here getting a review copy?
If so - pics, impressions and an AAR are required please.
Quote from: JudgeDredd on November 05, 2013, 07:11:09 AM
Is anyone here going to sell their soul and buy this on Friday? Or is anyone here getting a review copy?
If so - pics, impressions and an AAR are required please.
We're all waiting on you JD.... ;D
Quote from: Barthheart on November 05, 2013, 08:33:57 AM
Quote from: JudgeDredd on November 05, 2013, 07:11:09 AM
Is anyone here going to sell their soul and buy this on Friday? Or is anyone here getting a review copy?
If so - pics, impressions and an AAR are required please.
We're all waiting on you JD.... ;D
Lol, you are EVIL!
dammit - I ain't buying. When will you people learn? :P
Quote from: Tuna on November 05, 2013, 08:41:29 AM
Quote from: Barthheart on November 05, 2013, 08:33:57 AM
Quote from: JudgeDredd on November 05, 2013, 07:11:09 AM
Is anyone here going to sell their soul and buy this on Friday? Or is anyone here getting a review copy?
If so - pics, impressions and an AAR are required please.
We're all waiting on you JD.... ;D
Lol, you are EVIL!
Jesus - fresh orange juice down the nose - uproar!!!!!
lmao ;D
one for the team JD!
lol
*put on dodgy French accent*
Listen very carefullee - I am only going to say these once - I am not buying ze stoopidly expenseeve game"
*dodgy French accent off*
is you gettin me?
QuoteI am not buying ze stoopidly expenseeve game
Just buy it already...and then say you got a review copy from Matrix and now you must play the thing... ;)
^that's actually a good idea.
But NO! Not this time. It's someone else's turn to cave. Where's GrimReaper? ;D
Quote from: JudgeDredd on November 05, 2013, 02:21:26 PM
^that's actually a good idea.
But NO! Not this time. It's someone else's turn to cave. Where's GrimReaper? ;D
Not a chance on this one:) Although I could likely talk myself into justifying the price, just can't see how I would ever play this game since no AI. No way I could schedule playing time with other players that have to be online at the same time as me. I have to admit trying to search my own soul to see if I could enjoy even playing solitaire, but just can't see how that would be fun for me. When the AI version does come out, I could certainly be tempted.....but until then.....will have to pass the torch to someone else.
My bet is JD will still end up with this, regardless of his denials:) I will start the betting he will have by the end of the weekend....
Matrix sent him already a review copy I heard...should arrive at the weekend yes :P
Quote from: Grimnirsson on November 06, 2013, 01:00:10 AM
Matrix sent him already a review copy I heard...should arrive at the weekend yes :P
You are an evil bunch - and this statement here is entrapment! ;D
Quotehttp://wargamer.com/article/3468/pc-game-preview-world-in-flames-pc-the-gamers-questions
Questions about the PC version posed by players of the original World in Flames boardgame answered by Steven Hokanson
Btw...
QuoteFor naval operations, which often have dozens of units in a hex (50 is not an unusual number)
Hello? 50 counters in a hex??? I thought the stacks were high in Imperium Romanum 2, but this?? :o
This was posted by Ian at Matrix.....
"The price at Essen includes the map which is an optional extra is half the cost, so halve the price when you think about the game alone."
Since I believe the purchase price at that event was around $207, does this maybe imply the game will roughly be around $100 if you choose not to include the maps? If so, makes it more tempting, but would still be tough to pull the trigger without an AI.
Matrix Facebook said that release is tomorrow.
It's on sale
Looks like the download goes live around 3-4pm GMT.
mmm....Saw it on the Matrix main page as Buy Now...didn't go any further (as I have my review copy coming ;) )
Does the 'review copy' include the maps?
No - wth would I do with a 21'x9' map for a game?
Replace that wallpaper photo mural of the Earth seen from the Moon that's on one of the Man-cave walls? :D
http://www.muralsyourway.com/earthrise-mural/
(Here's the one Martok should have on his wall: http://www.muralsyourway.com/vintage-minneapolis-map-mural/)
Still no price.. I wonder if they are afraid the interwebs will explode.
They never give a price until it is actually released!
Though ballpark figure is $100
And.......
drum roll pleeeease......
It is released!
http://www.matrixgames.com/store/296/World.In.Flames
Sorry boys...there's absolutely NO chance of me having a "review copy" to trial for you.
Step One - Check the Cost
£66.99...ok...not too shabby given the manuals in the product. So it might be on...
Step Two - Work Out Thieving Governments VAT
£13.40...so that's £80.39...well, I said if it was less than £80 I might be in still...and £80.39 is almost less than £80
Step Three - Go to Next Step and Check For "Extras"
WTF? £27.73 postage? So why no postage in Europe....found this
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/announcement.asp?id=38
So that's £94.72+20% tax = £113.66 - and then Customs charges on top.
Not a chance in hell Matrix. See ya.
Oh - and by the way Matrix - kudos on how to treat your European customers by having the closure of your European distribution centre and then offering your game as physical only....just slow clap all round.
I wonder who will be the first to take the leap of faith and buy this game ($100.00 usa) and start a thread here about how it plays, etc? If I read the site correctly the map pack is an additional $100.00 over and above the game?
Looking at the purchase process, it seems you get 25% off the map pack if you buy it with the game...so $75 I believe for the map pack.
There's absolutely no chance in hell I'm buying this with the postage and customs charges. I'll be totally honest - I was very likely to pull the trigger given I worked out (before I noticed postage) that it was £66+tax.
To make it physical only with no European distribution is just a kick in the nuts from Matrix/Slitherine to customers in Europe. A kick I'm not likely to forget (or forgive).
Quote from: JudgeDredd on November 07, 2013, 02:44:03 PM
Sorry boys...there's absolutely NO chance of me having a "review copy" to trial for you.
Step One - Check the Cost
£66.99...ok...not too shabby given the manuals in the product. So it might be on...
Step Two - Work Out Thieving Governments VAT
£13.40...so that's £80.39...well, I said if it was less than £80 I might be in still...and £80.39 is almost less than £80
Step Three - Go to Next Step and Check For "Extras"
WTF? £27.73 postage? So why no postage in Europe....found this
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/announcement.asp?id=38
So that's £94.72+20% tax = £113.66 - and then Customs charges on top.
Not a chance in hell Matrix. See ya.
Oh - and by the way Matrix - kudos on how to treat your European customers by having the closure of your European distribution centre and then offering your game as physical only....just slow clap all round.
Some people are celebrating this price over there!
mmm...I think I would've popped the price if it was £80.
The people celebrating the price are the people who have been saying they'd pay whatever it takes. I'm always wary of that kind of statement...it gives an open pricing policy to a company. They are also big boardgame fans. I've noticed a big influx in Matrix and in particular that forum of "new blood".
£80 was a probably - but one thing in particular I HATE to pay is "empty pounds" - pounds that don't actually give me anything...postage, tax, customs...all of which are applicable here...and at a hefty £47 just for tax and postage (not including what customs would charge me)...I consider that and OUTRAGEOUS amount of wasted money.
When Matrix mentioned it was "all about the physical product" for this game, they forgot to mention "...even though our European friends will be screwed over".
It's cool. I have Blood and Bridges to get on with anyway and then a very enticing RAF Battle of Britain boardgame to learn.
the Scot is strong in this one
Quotethough our European friends will be screwed over
The typical BS...same as with the new consoles - the PS4 costs 399 USD and in Germany I have to pay...399€ which is a lot more.
erik - 'So we've decided to push forward but to fully inform our customers that we are shipping with some known NetPlay issues. '
for all those here who bought it
:-X
So, just out of curiosity... playing a full war, global scenario... how long would it take to play the full game?
I suppose pretty much as long as the real war lasted...
Quote from: Grimnirsson on November 07, 2013, 05:10:02 PM
I suppose pretty much as long as the real war lasted...
The first turn-based, truly "real-time" game?
LOL!
Judge, there may be more than one way to skin a Kzin. How much does it cost to ship a 10 pound so called 'gift' from the USA to the UK? One valued at, oh say $99?
mmm....I'm guessing here, but I think about $43! ;)
Well, shoot me a PM next week if your subsequent forum reading adventures cause you to want to discuss transatlantic shipping trivia.
Thank you - but I'd be too worried about customs throwing an extra charge in there.
I can do without the game. I have PLENTY to be getting on with and I do not need a hardcore distraction like this game.
Besides - the community over there seems a little too hostile for me...
But thanks anyway. The offer is much appreciated
The game came in cheaper than I thought but with no AI (or PBEM) options it was little chance of a sale for me.
Maybe when the dust settles and if the AI version ever sees the light of day I'll take the plunge.
Quote from: Rayfer on November 07, 2013, 05:29:30 PM
Quote from: Grimnirsson on November 07, 2013, 05:10:02 PM
I suppose pretty much as long as the real war lasted...
The first turn-based, truly "real-time" game?
I played a division level, turn based, hand moderated PBM WW2 game in the early 90's. The cost was $20 per turn and one game had over 80 players. I was Grand Admiral Raeder of the Kriegsmarine and the German team consisted of 16 players (to start with). Each turn represented 2 weeks of game time and it took the company an average of 3 weeks to run each turn!
I wish to hell I could find out info on that game now. I think it was just called "World War 2", which isn't much help on Google.
.
Quote from: JudgeDredd on November 07, 2013, 04:06:05 PM
mmm...I think I would've popped the price if it was £80.
The people celebrating the price are the people who have been saying they'd pay whatever it takes. I'm always wary of that kind of statement...it gives an open pricing policy to a company. They are also big boardgame fans. I've noticed a big influx in Matrix and in particular that forum of "new blood".
£80 was a probably - but one thing in particular I HATE to pay is "empty pounds" - pounds that don't actually give me anything...postage, tax, customs...all of which are applicable here...and at a hefty £47 just for tax and postage (not including what customs would charge me)...I consider that and OUTRAGEOUS amount of wasted money.
When Matrix mentioned it was "all about the physical product" for this game, they forgot to mention "...even though our European friends will be screwed over".
It's cool. I have Blood and Bridges to get on with anyway and then a very enticing RAF Battle of Britain boardgame to learn.
Or you could read this post....
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/announcement.asp?id=38 (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/announcement.asp?id=38)
Is the most expensive computer game ever?
Or the biggest computer game? Not even sure how to measure that. I suspect that MMOs are larger in that the play areas is bigger (an entire world). But I wonder if this is the biggest computer map ever for a PC game.
Michael
It's not really a game that interests me. I will say that $99 for 3 hard cover bound rule books (500+ pages of rules) and the software; it doesn't really seem overly over priced. The tax and shipping costs cannot really be pinned on Matrix. I get the frustration, but they don't pass into law the VAT or import taxes on the behalf of governments.
Quote from: eyebiter on November 07, 2013, 07:34:11 PM
Was it advertised in Strategy & Tactics or another magazine at the time?
It was definitely advertised in a magazine though I can't recall which one. There was also an American Civil War game of similar scale. Both games, I believe, were licensed from a company in the UK to be run on this side of the pond. I believe that the company was in White Plains, New York, although adding that to a Google search didn't help the last time I tried.
Quote from: Bison on November 07, 2013, 09:55:03 PM
It's not really a game that interests me. I will say that $99 for 3 hard cover bound rule books (500+ pages of rules) and the software; it doesn't really seem overly over priced. The tax and shipping costs cannot really be pinned on Matrix. I get the frustration, but they don't pass into law the VAT or import taxes on the behalf of governments.
I'm not blaming them for the taxes or the shipping. That isn't their fault and it wouldn't make ANY sense at all to blame them for those charges.
What IS their fault is KNOWING in advance that their European Distribution system has gone belly up and providing a game as PHYSICAL ONLY knowing that there will be considerable cost to their European customers.
As I said - those are empty pounds to me.
Quote from: challerain on November 07, 2013, 08:01:31 PM
Quote from: JudgeDredd on November 07, 2013, 04:06:05 PM
mmm...I think I would've popped the price if it was £80.
The people celebrating the price are the people who have been saying they'd pay whatever it takes. I'm always wary of that kind of statement...it gives an open pricing policy to a company. They are also big boardgame fans. I've noticed a big influx in Matrix and in particular that forum of "new blood".
£80 was a probably - but one thing in particular I HATE to pay is "empty pounds" - pounds that don't actually give me anything...postage, tax, customs...all of which are applicable here...and at a hefty £47 just for tax and postage (not including what customs would charge me)...I consider that and OUTRAGEOUS amount of wasted money.
When Matrix mentioned it was "all about the physical product" for this game, they forgot to mention "...even though our European friends will be screwed over".
It's cool. I have Blood and Bridges to get on with anyway and then a very enticing RAF Battle of Britain boardgame to learn.
Or you could read this post....
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/announcement.asp?id=38 (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/announcement.asp?id=38)
You mean like I did here
Quote
Sorry boys...there's absolutely NO chance of me having a "review copy" to trial for you.
Step One - Check the Cost
£66.99...ok...not too shabby given the manuals in the product. So it might be on...
Step Two - Work Out Thieving Governments VAT
£13.40...so that's £80.39...well, I said if it was less than £80 I might be in still...and £80.39 is almost less than £80
Step Three - Go to Next Step and Check For "Extras"
WTF? £27.73 postage? So why no postage in Europe....found this
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/announcement.asp?id=38
So that's £94.72+20% tax = £113.66 - and then Customs charges on top.
Not a chance in hell Matrix. See ya.
Oh - and by the way Matrix - kudos on how to treat your European customers by having the closure of your European distribution centre and then offering your game as physical only....just slow clap all round.
Like I said, in several posts, the cost of "the product" wasn't that much of a shock to me. Those manuals look superb (though if there were going for longevity and they understand the use they are going to get (which they acknowledge) then I don't understand why ring bound was not going to be more durable...but I'm not a "book binding" expert - so I'll bow to their knowledge of the industry)...but £27+VAT is just a kick in the balls - and I hate being kicked in the balls ;D
And everyone who thinks it's great for the price - that's cool. But you do have to remember that's for "half" a game. There is no AI here. The AI is going to cost you extra.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaanyway...I've said my piece. I will leave this thread in the knowledge that I won't be owning it any time soon.
Good looking product (and I mean I LOVE the aesthetic feel of the game) and the manuals look superb...but I do not have £113 to drop on it - especially when £40 of that is wasted money.
Judge, this title is a book set with free software.
Not a software that comes with hard manuals.
The software has little value when taken alone. And you know that.
I knew I spoke too soon. :(
That's simply not true, though many people suggest that now. It was only a few weeks ago when the price was alluded to that Matrix explained the cost of the game is taking into account the length of development and to make a profit.
I've seen over there that statement from some die hards.
And you missed my point. I'm not against the hard back manuals per se - the only reason I am against having to buy (being forced for NO reason) to buy the hard back manuals is Matrix now has no euro distribution centre which means by forcing gamers to buy the manuals, you are forcing delivery and taxes and potentially customs excise duty on those customers.
They've done that knowing their European distribution centre is down...so in this particular case, to their European customers, they've said we're forcing you to pay these extra charges - and I can't stress enough - for no apparent reason.
If they had a digital download only option, they could've spared their European customers £40+.
Now I am actually done.
No worries. I understand your point. A lot of cost involved with physical shipment. Wonder how much is it to send to Singapore?
I'm not sure if I'll buy this because I know that there is a high probability that the game will be shelved and ignored. No one to play with but myself, I cannot commit to regularly meeting my opponents at a certain time. Lack of AI may be ignored if there was PBEM. But the game system is not PBEM friendly. Lots of red flags for me. Plus the shipping issue.
Seems to me like its an expensive replacement for a Vassel module. No AI kills it for me.
I'm pretty sure I would've caved. I was all over the shop and forum looking for release. Had that £28+VAT not been sprung, I'd likely have been £80 lighter in pocket today.
I should actually thank Matrix for saving me the money.
Jomni - do you live in Singapore then? That's quite cool, no?
As Matrix have always had a distribution centre in Europe (that I recall), their postage has always been very reasonable. I've never really given it a thought about other regions. Does a physical release from Matrix normally cost you much? If not - then it would suggest there's a distribution centre nearer to you than the US.
Perhaps Matrix will eventually end up stocking it in a European center. They can't be happy that the cost is so prohibitive to the early side of the Pond and can't be deaf to all the groaning over there. Most likely they are just not ready with the needed space, distribution licenses, local permits, whatnot. Don't give up hope. :)
it looks like a new one opens in March
Quote from: JudgeDredd on November 08, 2013, 04:05:35 AM
Jomni - do you live in Singapore then? That's quite cool, no?
Yes I do. It's not cool but hot. ;D ;D ;D
Could've all been avoided (for others) if they offered Digital Only as an option.
I say others, because I would have wanted those manuals with my game
the weird thing is from reading the forum over there is the game comes with it all on PDF as well - so for all those who simply want a game disc there is no option to provide this facility - theres some poor guy who will pay the full price and has said keep the manuals - he just wants the game
im still troubled by the 'its such a complicated deep game we just had to, simply had to, include these awesome manuals'
no
you
didnt
I just think it all boils down to the game not being meant for computer war gamers, per se. It is primarily meant to be marketed to board gamers who think nothing of dropping a hundred or hundred and fifty dollars on a monster game. There's probably some marketing augury that tells Matrix that if a D/L only option is included then most of the Big-Time Board game spenders will get turned off somehow. Who knows? ???
looking at what does and doesnt come with the game - the target market for this release is a boardgamer who doesnt want to play WIF the boardgame, but will play WIF the pc game, on his own or against one friend?
Looks like it. With those maps I wonder if the intent was also to let folks play long distance with one using the PC and the other using the maps and board game's counters to follow along. Seems goofy but you never know. Or the maps could be a sort of upgrade to the board game because of their higher hex count in all but the Euro map. The PC game and board game would then be a complete system with multiple play style options.
Yeah - but by "forcing" the manuals with no actual need to force them, they have alienated a chunk of their market (the people that actually do NOT want a physical manual). On top of that, they've alienated their European customers forcing physical when it's not available for dispatch in their region.
It's, in short, a mess and imo quite short sighted of them.
I'm not convinced things will get better for them when they do add an AI either - because the people who didn't buy will have the physical purchase + base game + AI module...the price will not look as enticing as it does now.
So what's the breakdown of the people who aren't going to buy
1. People who don't want physical manuals and having to pay for them
2. European customers who have to buy the physical product and therefore pay a considerable amount in "wasted" money (tax, customs, VAT) (ME!)
3. People who wanted an AI who might not buy when the AI is available because it's going to look pretty damn costly (much like people moan about the cost of the Distant Worlds base game and DLC cost, or Battlefronts system).
That, I would imagine, is quite a chunk of your potential market right there.
oops. I said I was leaving.
I am now. Promise ;)
Quote from: JudgeDredd on November 08, 2013, 07:29:29 AM
oops. I said I was leaving.
I am now. Promise ;)
lmao - before you go - from what i understand you pay for the game, the manuals, and the postage, and the vat and the customs costs - because it all has to be sent physically
and then they give you a link to download the game digitally which comes with PDF manuals
its like they really, really wanted to piss some people off
lol - that's about the size of it. Make you pay for all that physical stuff and then give you the digital download you only wanted anyway ;D
Here's my total price (shipping to Singapore):
S$132.99 + S$55.60 = S$188.59
around US$150.
No I did not order. Just checking the total price.
Comparing to Judge's GBP 113.6 which is equivalent to US$182, this is a steal.
No 20% tax I guess.
I can't speak to the PC game, but as for WiF the board game, I've spent years playing it on and off since 1986. The last campaign I played in 2003 took five of us, playing once a week, about nine months to finish.
Michael
Quote from: DicedT on November 08, 2013, 09:45:00 AMThe last campaign I played in 2003 took five of us, playing once a week, about nine months to finish.
That's pretty fast actually :P
Quote from: JudgeDredd on November 08, 2013, 02:30:52 AM
Quote from: challerain on November 07, 2013, 08:01:31 PM
Quote from: JudgeDredd on November 07, 2013, 04:06:05 PM
mmm...I think I would've popped the price if it was £80.
The people celebrating the price are the people who have been saying they'd pay whatever it takes. I'm always wary of that kind of statement...it gives an open pricing policy to a company. They are also big boardgame fans. I've noticed a big influx in Matrix and in particular that forum of "new blood".
£80 was a probably - but one thing in particular I HATE to pay is "empty pounds" - pounds that don't actually give me anything...postage, tax, customs...all of which are applicable here...and at a hefty £47 just for tax and postage (not including what customs would charge me)...I consider that and OUTRAGEOUS amount of wasted money.
When Matrix mentioned it was "all about the physical product" for this game, they forgot to mention "...even though our European friends will be screwed over".
It's cool. I have Blood and Bridges to get on with anyway and then a very enticing RAF Battle of Britain boardgame to learn.
Or you could read this post....
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/announcement.asp?id=38 (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/announcement.asp?id=38)
You mean like I did here
Quote
Sorry boys...there's absolutely NO chance of me having a "review copy" to trial for you.
Step One - Check the Cost
£66.99...ok...not too shabby given the manuals in the product. So it might be on...
Step Two - Work Out Thieving Governments VAT
£13.40...so that's £80.39...well, I said if it was less than £80 I might be in still...and £80.39 is almost less than £80
Step Three - Go to Next Step and Check For "Extras"
WTF? £27.73 postage? So why no postage in Europe....found this
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/announcement.asp?id=38
So that's £94.72+20% tax = £113.66 - and then Customs charges on top.
Not a chance in hell Matrix. See ya.
Oh - and by the way Matrix - kudos on how to treat your European customers by having the closure of your European distribution centre and then offering your game as physical only....just slow clap all round.
Like I said, in several posts, the cost of "the product" wasn't that much of a shock to me. Those manuals look superb (though if there were going for longevity and they understand the use they are going to get (which they acknowledge) then I don't understand why ring bound was not going to be more durable...but I'm not a "book binding" expert - so I'll bow to their knowledge of the industry)...but £27+VAT is just a kick in the balls - and I hate being kicked in the balls ;D
And everyone who thinks it's great for the price - that's cool. But you do have to remember that's for "half" a game. There is no AI here. The AI is going to cost you extra.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaanyway...I've said my piece. I will leave this thread in the knowledge that I won't be owning it any time soon.
Good looking product (and I mean I LOVE the aesthetic feel of the game) and the manuals look superb...but I do not have £113 to drop on it - especially when £40 of that is wasted money.
No, like the part of the linked post that says they are opening a new distro center in Europe early next year.
I linked to it so I read it. Doesn't help me (or any other European purchasers) now.
Quote from: JudgeDredd on November 08, 2013, 06:25:22 PM
I linked to it so I read it. Doesn't help me (or any other European purchasers) now.
Jusdge - are you worried about getting the actual hard copies of the manuals ? ie - would you be willing to pay the same price for the digital game ?
Quote from: Zulu1966 on November 08, 2013, 06:32:32 PM
Quote from: JudgeDredd on November 08, 2013, 06:25:22 PM
I linked to it so I read it. Doesn't help me (or any other European purchasers) now.
Jusdge - are you worried about getting the actual hard copies of the manuals ? ie - would you be willing to pay the same price for the digital game ?
I think I said earlier, I actually really like the look of the manuals and the draw for me IS the physical manuals...but, given my options, I may well have purchased this without the manuals.
I don't like paying postage wherever possible. If there was an EU distribution centre, I'd likely have paid the postage and got the manuals...but as there is not, I would probably have bought the game without them.
It's the lack of purchasing options and the lack of clarity and the lack of honesty that gets my back up. Something has gone on here where the physical manuals are required...and no-one is being honest about why they are required. All we are getting is "it's about the physical product"...and that is just bollox.
Quote from: JudgeDredd on November 09, 2013, 12:49:44 AM
Something has gone on here where the physical manuals are required...and no-one is being honest about why they are required. All we are getting is "it's about the physical product"...and that is just bollox.
Maybe ADG requires this.
Quote from: jomni on November 09, 2013, 01:34:27 AM
Quote from: JudgeDredd on November 09, 2013, 12:49:44 AM
Something has gone on here where the physical manuals are required...and no-one is being honest about why they are required. All we are getting is "it's about the physical product"...and that is just bollox.
Maybe ADG requires this.
Ahh but that's what I asked of Erik weeks ago..... Some respect and honesty and no marketing shit...... if that's the case we're all grown up enough to be told.... And we're all intelligent enough to see through the piss poor reasoning so far
So it looks like none of us are going to take the plunge:) Its rare when a new wargame is released and nobody from this forum is playing it or even buying it on the first weekend.
I did a quick price check for me, it would be about $109 to buy it and ship it to me.
Although shipping/taxes is not a big decision point for me since it seems reasonable for my shipping location (however, I do agree for people not in the US, seems way too high), still main reason for me not jumping in is the lack of AI. I would be lying if I said I wasn't intrigued by the game based on how people have talked it up over the years, but just afraid it would become shelf-ware for me and get little play. The only thing I am contemplating is maybe purchasing it in advance of the AI coming out in order to play solitaire to learn the system and rules before then. However, what holds me back from doing that is what if the AI never comes or takes years to do?
Maybe I will ask for it as a Christmas gift so I won't feel as guilty if it gets little play:)
I have to confess that I'll probably be getting it soon. Maybe even this evening depending on how some online bill-paying goes later.
Quote from: Staggerwing on November 09, 2013, 08:31:18 AM
I have to confess that I'll probably be getting it soon. Maybe even this evening depending on how some online bill-paying goes later.
Excellent.....I will look forward to your impressions. I doubt I would ever play multi-player so I would be interested in hearing how it might play as a solitaire game. Never have played a solitaire computer or boardgame before so I am skeptical I would enjoy it. But I see others say they can enjoy this mode, so maybe I should give it a shot.
I bought it 2 nights ago. I haven't actually played yet as I'm still watching the 400 minutes worth of video tutorials. After that I'll skim the 10 text tutorials and then tackle the interactive tutorials, where you actually fire up a loaded game and follow instructions step by step. I'm sure that will be what gets me most comfortable with the interface and rules.
As complex as this game is, I'm kind of surprised that Steve managed to finish it as fast as he did. I'm in awe of the mans accomplishment and still a bit shocked that I actually have this game in my possession. It will have to feel real some day! I think I've been waiting 16 years. It was probably 1997 when I first heard that someone was working on a computer version, and then 2004(?) when Steve and Matrix took over the effort.
Quote from: Ubercat on November 09, 2013, 08:59:30 AM
I bought it 2 nights ago. I haven't actually played yet as I'm still watching the 400 minutes worth of video tutorials. After that I'll skim the 10 text tutorials and then tackle the interactive tutorials, where you actually fire up a loaded game and follow instructions step by step. I'm sure that will be what gets me most comfortable with the interface and rules.
As complex as this game is, I'm kind of surprised that Steve managed to finish it as fast as he did. I'm in awe of the mans accomplishment and still a bit shocked that I actually have this game in my possession. It will have to feel real some day! I think I've been waiting 16 years. It was probably 1997 when I first heard that someone was working on a computer version, and then 2004(?) when Steve and Matrix took over the effort.
It does seem like they have a ton of tutorial items, not sure if that is a good or bad thing for me since it might imply it being way too complex for my simple mind:(
Do you plan on playing multi player or solitaire, will be interested in any impressions you can provide. Just curious, are you brand new to the game or have you played the boardgame before? I have never played the boardgame.
I bought the boardgame around 1992 or so and tried playing solo a couple of times. I didn't get very far because I just couldn't figure out the submarine strategic warfare rules. Trying to play out the battle of the Atlantic would bring the game to a screeching halt while I read and re-read the appropriate rules. Now with a PC controlled game and the power of the intarwebs at my disposal, that shouldn't be a problem!
I'm going to play out Barbarossa and Guadalcanal solo to get familiar and then I'll tackle a game with an opponent. Right now, PBEM hasn't yet been implemented and Netplay only accommodates two players per game so we'll each have to control our entire alliance. Hopefully it won't be too long before Netplay is fixed to handle up to six players per game. When PBEM comes in, we won't even have to be playing at the same time.
I'll post more as I learn the game.
Quote from: JudgeDredd on November 09, 2013, 12:49:44 AM
Quote from: Zulu1966 on November 08, 2013, 06:32:32 PM
Quote from: JudgeDredd on November 08, 2013, 06:25:22 PM
I linked to it so I read it. Doesn't help me (or any other European purchasers) now.
Jusdge - are you worried about getting the actual hard copies of the manuals ? ie - would you be willing to pay the same price for the digital game ?
I think I said earlier, I actually really like the look of the manuals and the draw for me IS the physical manuals...but, given my options, I may well have purchased this without the manuals.
I don't like paying postage wherever possible. If there was an EU distribution centre, I'd likely have paid the postage and got the manuals...but as there is not, I would probably have bought the game without them.
It's the lack of purchasing options and the lack of clarity and the lack of honesty that gets my back up. Something has gone on here where the physical manuals are required...and no-one is being honest about why they are required. All we are getting is "it's about the physical product"...and that is just bollox.
Well I bought it. I have to say it looks excellent - and for someone who doesnt mind - indeed prefers to play solo - its great value. Having seen whats there - I can say there is truly an epic amount of effort in this thing.
By the way - I was looking at about 50-60$ postal charges then likely further charges at import. So - given I never really wanted the manuals I simply selected the "Ship to Different Address" option in the store. Told them I lived in alaska and paid about 9 bucks for the extras. What they will do with the books I know not - but that made it palatable for me.
Well, that option might be the best bet. If you had shipped it to someone you know they could later even send you the books as media mail or whatever the international equivalent is.
OK, so... I haven't broken down and gotten this yet, though it would be a day-1 purchase had it had an AI or PBEM. Delegating certain things to the AI to speed things up PBEM-wise wouldn't both me, as long as I was able to give it some general guidelines.
That being said, exactly how do you make this fun playing solo? Are there any solitaire frameworks out there that let you fake out having perfect information on enemy intentions? Kinda like rolling dice to determine where a country will focus its forces, production priorities, diplomatic stance, etc? Or do people just play both sides as best they can? Seems like the former would introduce an pseudo-AI into the game, like how many solitaire boardgames do.
Personally, when playing a board game which isn't overly intended for single player, I play both sides as best I can. Obviously ruses aren't possible and there are no secrets
I'm not sure how well that would work with a computer game, but it does work ok (not great) for a board game.
For Federation and Empire and even when I play Civilization by myself in hotseat I play each side the best I can and I'll use an Excel spreadsheet with random number generators to determine certain events as needed.
If this had been Federation and Empire I would have gladly shelled out the $'s for it! I'm still thinking about getting this game for solo play but not sure what I'll do yet.
Quote from: bbmike on November 10, 2013, 02:30:23 PM
For Federation and Empire and even when I play Civilization by myself in hotseat I play each side the best I can and I'll use an Excel spreadsheet with random number generators to determine certain events as needed.
If this had been Federation and Empire I would have gladly shelled out the $'s for it! I'm still thinking about getting this game for solo play but not sure what I'll do yet.
Oooo, Federation and Empire would indeed be dream come true..... Started at least twice trying to program version in VB for my own use.... I'd pay big bucks fer that... But it's never gonna happen....
Quote400 minutes worth of video tutorials
Maybe they should have made a movie vs. a computer game? ::)
Quote from: SgtRock on November 10, 2013, 07:46:43 PM
Quote400 minutes worth of video tutorials
Maybe they should have made a movie vs. a computer game? ::)
Because video tutorials somehow equal game cinematics? What in the world are you talking about?
Vassal aside, I really have never seen a good port from boardgame to computer game. And given the cost....going to wait on this one to see how it settles.
Quote from: ArizonaTank on November 11, 2013, 06:28:27 AM
Vassal aside, I really have never seen a good port from boardgame to computer game. And given the cost....going to wait on this one to see how it settles.
Guess what? The highly-acclaimed board game Conflict of Heroes is now selling at 50% off. :D
http://www.matrixgames.com/news/1280/The.Conflict.of.Heroes.Series.on.Sale.!
Suprising how Matrix put a 1 year old game on sale.
I'm not terribly surprised. I don't think that the game sold that well (I very well may be wrong on that) so if a sale gets those on the fence that perhaps have never tried a "true" boardgame conversion to leap, then perhaps they will see that it really is a great game/port and that perhaps, just perhaps, they will turn an eye towards that other big boardgame port that recently came out (the name of which escapes me at the moment ;) ).
Well, I guess I caved in and purchased, sort of..... :) Decided this is the perfect xmas gift for my wife to get me so the order was placed today.....perfect kind of gift, something I likely wouldn't have purchased on my own, and if I don't end up liking it, chalk it up to a bad gift:)
Only downside, have to wait a month or so to play it:( Oh well, maybe all the kinks will be worked out by then......if I don't feel too guilty, maybe I even sneak a peak or two at the PDF manuals/videos.:) Sssshhhhh....don't tell anyone!
Quote from: jomni on November 11, 2013, 06:57:45 AM
Quote from: ArizonaTank on November 11, 2013, 06:28:27 AM
Vassal aside, I really have never seen a good port from boardgame to computer game. And given the cost....going to wait on this one to see how it settles.
Guess what? The highly-acclaimed board game Conflict of Heroes is now selling at 50% off. :D
http://www.matrixgames.com/news/1280/The.Conflict.of.Heroes.Series.on.Sale.!
Suprising how Matrix put a 1 year old game on sale.
Well - there is a new module coming out so I guess they are thinking this may catch a few new adopters and persuade them to but the new one.
Got to LOVE the replies over at Matrix about this.
People are bitching about the shipping cost (my gripe also). They are willing to pay the same amount for the digital download but just for Matrix to keep the manuals so that they don't have to pay shipping (I am not) ;D
There is SO MUCH new blood over at Matrix because of this game - but I'm afraid it looks to be very obnoxious blood. The replies are really not helpful in the slightest and in fact quite inflammatory in a lot of cases.
There's a couple of special idiots continually bitching about how crap an AI is in any game and it will be awful in this and no-one has a right to want one...not understanding for a split second that some people want an AI. People aren't even bitching about no AI - they're just saying it's a no buy until there's an AI and then these two idiots jump in - just being totally not helpful.
I don't understand why these people are on the forums bitching about the people who are bitching? It's kind of comical. Why are they not playing this super game or reading those manuals?
What seems to grab my balls is - why are those stand up
What adds fuel to the fire is NO-ONE from Matrix/Slitherine even sticking their nose in to answer the VERY simple question - "don't give us your bullshit marketing...why are we having to pay postage for manuals we do not want" (the bullshit marketing being "we know what's best for you and this game and what is best is us forcing the manuals on you at great cost")
For the record - my bitch isn't personally about the manuals being forced. I wouldn't buy the game as DD even if it was cheaper. I want those manuals...but I'm not paying their ridiculous shipping costs. But I DO understand the gripes about why physical shipping is forced on people and I do understand the gripes about Matrix/Slitherine not getting on their and being honest.
Oh - and of course the usual crappy analogies come out. ;D
Quote from: JudgeDredd on November 11, 2013, 04:43:03 PM
Got to LOVE the replies over at Matrix about this.
People are bitching about the shipping cost (my gripe also). They are willing to pay the same amount for the digital download but just for Matrix to keep the manuals so that they don't have to pay shipping (I am not) ;D
There is SO MUCH new blood over at Matrix because of this game - but I'm afraid it looks to be very obnoxious blood. The replies are really not helpful in the slightest and in fact quite inflammatory in a lot of cases.
There's a couple of special idiots continually bitching about how crap an AI is in any game and it will be awful in this and no-one has a right to want one...not understanding for a split second that some people want an AI. People aren't even bitching about no AI - they're just saying it's a no buy until there's an AI and then these two idiots jump in - just being totally not helpful.
I don't understand why these people are on the forums bitching about the people who are bitching? It's kind of comical. Why are they not playing this super game or reading those manuals?
What seems to grab my balls is - why are those stand up
What adds fuel to the fire is NO-ONE from Matrix/Slitherine even sticking their nose in to answer the VERY simple question - "don't give us your bullshit marketing...why are we having to pay postage for manuals we do not want" (the bullshit marketing being "we know what's best for you and this game and what is best is us forcing the manuals on you at great cost")
For the record - my bitch isn't personally about the manuals being forced. I wouldn't buy the game as DD even if it was cheaper. I want those manuals...but I'm not paying their ridiculous shipping costs. But I DO understand the gripes about why physical shipping is forced on people and I do understand the gripes about Matrix/Slitherine not getting on their and being honest.
Oh - and of course the usual crappy analogies come out. ;D
- I agree about the discussions on AI or no AI....doesn't make sense to me at all why fight about it. For me I would prefer an AI, I am not a famous general and most entry level AI can beat me, so I would take whatever they got:) But either way, I would respect that some want an AI and others don't, no need to fight about it. Move on.
- I have always found it interesting that different game launches at Matrix receive different attention from the Matrix staff......Distant Worlds releases and seems like the Matrix staff are very much involved in the forums....something like WIF releases as well as like Flashpoint and you hardly know they exist with very few, if any posts. Seems a bit uneven....would think all releases would garner their equal attention.
- I'll never understand their decision for requiring the books, besides the fact they must have been forced to do it that way for some reason. I don't buy the physical books are necessary to enjoy the game. ebooks are just fine for most people and that is the way most people do them nowadays. The game comes with PDF manuals and to be honest I bet most people would have read them prior to their physical books even show up. But with that said, I am with you JD that I actually wanted the books, but certainly would have thought twice if the shipping would have been that much for me.
We'll see how things turn out.....not a ton of posts on actual gameplay yet and that is the important part.....won't be able to contribute my thoughts until xmas day:(
lol - you should do what I did one year GR...I ordered a couple of games for Christmas from my wife...an FPS - I think it was Allied Assault:Pacific (the Japanese war game) and Madden NFL (some year). When they came, I installed them and put them back in the box and gave them to my wife for Christmas.
I was playing them for a month before I got them on Christmas day ;)
Some people call it devious - I said clever :)
Quote from: JudgeDredd on November 11, 2013, 05:07:27 PM
lol - you should do what I did one year GR...I ordered a couple of games for Christmas from my wife...an FPS - I think it was Allied Assault:Pacific (the Japanese war game) and Madden NFL (some year). When they came, I installed them and put them back in the box and gave them to my wife for Christmas.
I was playing them for a month before I got them on Christmas day ;)
Some people call it devious - I said clever :)
Don't think that hasn't crossed my mind......I have the downloaded game, PDF manuals, and videos in my possession....how long will I be able to hold off without installing:) My wife would never know since she is clueless about my games, except for the fact I spend a lot of money on them.
Let the countdown begin on how many days before I cheat on my xmas gift:)
You could kind of "split" it...use the game, and keep the beautiful manuals for your Christmas
Just sayin ;)
Quote from: JudgeDredd on November 11, 2013, 04:43:03 PM
I don't understand why these people are on the forums bitching about the people who are bitching? It's kind of comical. Why are they not playing this super game or reading those manuals?
Well the game is so much appealing to those sad WiF fans who all these years played with their board games all by them selves. I think this is the majority of buyers. They will never understand how other computer gamers feel.
Quote from: JudgeDredd on November 11, 2013, 05:14:54 PM
You could kind of "split" it...use the game, and keep the beautiful manuals for your Christmas
Just sayin ;)
I don't even think you'll need to install it before Xmas... Just watching the videos and reading the manuals will take into next year. :-)
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on November 11, 2013, 04:58:11 PM
We'll see how things turn out.....not a ton of posts on actual gameplay yet and that is the important part.....won't be able to contribute my thoughts until xmas day:(
And you see those people mentioned above asking the users to consolidate all their AI, Manual, Shipping complaints all into one thread so that they don't flood their beloved boards. :)
Quote from: smittyohio on November 11, 2013, 05:27:17 PM
Quote from: JudgeDredd on November 11, 2013, 05:14:54 PM
You could kind of "split" it...use the game, and keep the beautiful manuals for your Christmas
Just sayin ;)
I don't even think you'll need to install it before Xmas... Just watching the videos and reading the manuals will take into next year. :-)
Have to install in order to play the videos and read the PDFs :). If i do that, will have little will power to not fire up the game itself.
lol - like you have any willpower anyway!
People on here think we were split at birth! ;)
Quote from: JudgeDredd on November 11, 2013, 05:55:22 PM
lol - like you have any willpower anyway!
People on here think we were split at birth! ;)
We are pathetic:)
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on November 11, 2013, 05:43:57 PM
Quote from: smittyohio on November 11, 2013, 05:27:17 PM
Quote from: JudgeDredd on November 11, 2013, 05:14:54 PM
You could kind of "split" it...use the game, and keep the beautiful manuals for your Christmas
Just sayin ;)
I don't even think you'll need to install it before Xmas... Just watching the videos and reading the manuals will take into next year. :-)
Have to install in order to play the videos and read the PDFs :). If i do that, will have little will power to not fire up the game itself.
Doh.. good point ;-) Well, you could install, grab the videos and pdfs, and then UN-install...
Quote from: GJK on November 11, 2013, 08:25:21 AM
I'm not terribly surprised. I don't think that the game sold that well (I very well may be wrong on that) so if a sale gets those on the fence that perhaps have never tried a "true" boardgame conversion to leap, then perhaps they will see that it really is a great game/port and that perhaps, just perhaps, they will turn an eye towards that other big boardgame port that recently came out (the name of which escapes me at the moment ;) ).
Strange....I love the board game, but the Matrix port just never felt right IMHO.
A big realization....
I found out that the game has yet to implememt all optional rules. The status is indicated in the manual.
So if the manual is a living document, why do we need hard copies?
Also, MWiF will never be at par with WiF because developments in the boardgame will take time to be coded and matrix may not even attempt to do so. Looks like MWiF is not definitive.
Anyway since I don't follow WiF, I'm still interested in MWiF. Just not sure when to jump in.
Tonight. I was really ready to pull the trigger. But chickened out.
This was posted by Shannon the developer at Matrix
Quote
You won't need to have as many forms visible once you learn the basics. New players often want to keep the terrain effects chart, status indicators help form, etc. visible at all times.
Once the printed manual arrive, players will be able to keep them open to the appendices where most of the help information is shown, instead of needing to use screen real estate for that purpose. This is one of the reasons that we believe the printed manuals are necessary.
Now there are a couple of things wrong with this post.
1. Why is having the manual next to you any better than on screen help...because looking at the screenshots, the info is on several pages anyway...so it's not like (same with the screen) it's there in front of you all the time - the pages will be turned and therefore not there in front of you all the time.
2. If those aspects are what makes the manuals essential, why not have them as addendum cards/sheets?
3. They are NOT necessary. It's absolutely ludicrous and, if I may say, arrogant for Matrix/Slitherine/Shannon to tell people these manuals are required for their enjoyment of the game.
"This is why we believe..." that may be why you believe - but why the hell do you not give people the option not to - let them decide. It's their choice is it not whether they'd prefer the printed manuals, pdf manuals or whether they want to look at the pdfs on their iPad or tablet...isn't it?
We're really, really lucky they didn't force another monitor with the package - I mean, if they
know the manuals are required for us to enjoy the game, then what was to stop them saying "Hey...you know how best to enjoy this game? Using two monitors...one for the game and one for the PDFs (even though we're forcing the manuals on you). So because we have your best interests at heart and we know you'll like them, we've bundled another monitor in for you...it's all about the physical product with this release"
And I think that's what's at the crux of the issue...who the hell is a gaming publisher to tell gamers what they think is best from a purchasing perspective? Gamers know what's best for them - and it's options.
There is actually absolutely no known valid reason why the manuals and the extra shipping costs incurred are being forced on gamers - and with Matrix/Slitherine being silent over the issue with the exception of their bullshit marketing bollox, then people are annoyed they are being misled and for reasons they cannot fathom. That's what's annoying gamers over there...being treated like imbiciles instead of grown men (who play games :P ).
And it's not about they aren't liking the answer they get and are banging on about having a new answer until it's the answer they want - they just don't buy the crap answer that was given. Matrix/Slitherine have the right to sell this game with the physical manuals or not - but gamers over their want to know the genuine reason why Matrix is refusing to take their money...they smell a rat - and I don't blame them.
Anyway - I'm going to stop reading over there about it. I was reading about it because I was extremely interested in the game. I've made a couple of posts over there against my better judgement. I think (I've said lots of times) it looks stunning and the manuals look great but it's just doing my head in reading people simply wanting an honest answer to a genuine question and others telling them to STFU and no company response apart from marketing bollox.
Something happened when Slitherine joined/merged/took over Matrix and imo it wasn't for the better in terms of engaging the community. The company engagement with gamers changed and the people on the forum seemed to also. The whole feel of the place changed.
GR I don't particularly mind if you aren't opening the game until Christmas...I was just teasing. I can't get the game until the distribution centre opens in Europe which is Feb/March (May/June?)...but I will be looking for your impressions after Christmas ;)
Having worked with them in the past, the prevailing attitude then was that a good game manual is a talisman of sorts, wistfully looking back to the games of the 80s and 90s where you had something of an encyclopedia that wasn't just about describing how to play the game, but also giving immersive info on the time period, personalities, weapons, and so on.
The WiF manual for this game was something of a nightmare from the beginning, but it's good to see they got a handle on it. Hopefully, anyway.
That all said, I agree it certainly should be given as an option to players. Previously Matrix used Cafe Press to give gamers the option of printing their own manuals should they want to, and I thought that was an excellent system. I'm surprised they're trying to move away from it, unless this WiF manual is such a beast that they figure they need to make some money off it as well...which I don't think will end well.
there was a time they wanted to make all purchasers of WitP:AE also HAVE to buy WitP first - there was a massive outcry and they backed down but it took a long time and a lot of shouting to convince them theyd made a mistake
I think the problem now is even if they wanted to back down and change direction and have a DD version available, how would they make it right with all the people who already purchased it? That could even be a bigger mess. Certainly over time products have changed their sales strategy so it is not impossible for it to happen, I just think it would have to come at a much later time so that current purchasers don't go crazy if they suddenly offered the option.
As a recent purchaser, I personally wouldn't be upset if they immediately changed their policy on the game since I think it would be in the long term best interests of the game to attract more people. But I do know that likely a ton of other people would not feel the same and likely go nuts over it:)
I agree totally and therefore I don't think there's a u-turn any time soon.
But it's not a u-turn necessarily that people want. Just "the truth".
Quote from: JudgeDredd on November 12, 2013, 09:09:18 AM
I agree totally and therefore I don't think there's a u-turn any time soon.
But it's not a u-turn necessarily that people want. Just "the truth".
Gotcha and completely understand......guessing we won't get much more than what has been speculated/stated about the books somehow being part of the licensing deal and the fact they felt "we needed to have physical books" to enjoy/play the game. I personally completely disagree with the decision as many others have stated, no way anyone can convince me that a physical book is absolutely required to play a game, especially in this day in age when electronic books are most popular and no other computer game in world "requires" it to play. So my bet is it somehow is tied to the licensing agreement and/or financial payback......I am guessing this is why official Matrix folks deciding not to participate in those discussions since not really a great answer:( Really haven't seen any Matrix personnel at all visit and participate in WIF forums since the release, which is strange for such a major release for them.
Quote
Hi everyone,
We have read all the comments on this. We are listening and we'll be discussing this tomorrow. I can't promise that any changes will be possible, but I don't want you to feel that we are ignoring you and that you are unheard.
Regards,
- Erik
At last!
Quote from: JudgeDredd on November 12, 2013, 03:51:39 PM
Quote
Hi everyone,
We have read all the comments on this. We are listening and we'll be discussing this tomorrow. I can't promise that any changes will be possible, but I don't want you to feel that we are ignoring you and that you are unheard.
Regards,
- Erik
At last!
It will be interesting to see what they come up with......
lol - for all my vocality over it, the likelihood is it would be nothing that can help me anyway.
My need is a European distribution centre to get rid of the potential[/] customs tax and to remove the £28+VAT (£33 or $52) shipping charge!
But - an answer is all I and a lot of people sought. I'm stuck until March anyway...and I think the likelihood is I will get it. What I am going to do is stay "out the pit" over there, but read up on some AARs. Some of the mechanics I've seen I really like, scrapping units, lend lease etc and as I've already mentioned the graphics are right up my street.
We'll see.
Quote from: JudgeDredd on November 12, 2013, 03:51:39 PM
Quote
Hi everyone,
We have read all the comments on this. We are listening and we'll be discussing this tomorrow. I can't promise that any changes will be possible, but I don't want you to feel that we are ignoring you and that you are unheard.
Regards,
- Erik
At last!
What!? I just bought it. :) No worries though.
lol. Didn't take you long either Jomni ;D
I would've been with you both - in fact I'm pretty sure I would've caved earlier.
Quote from: JudgeDredd on November 12, 2013, 06:11:43 PM
lol. Didn't take you long either Jomni ;D
I would've been with you both - in fact I'm pretty sure I would've caved earlier.
Time to give in regardless of the shipping and taxes:).
Kidding, even I would not buy it with all those costs:)
lol - trust me - there are moments (very fleeting, but still moments) when I thought about it...but $50 for "nothing" is such a waste of hard cash.
I don't mind spending money (ask the wife) but wasting it? Not me.
I caved... but I wouldn't have if i didn't live in the States. I'm hoping to get enough enjoyment out of it solitaire that I don't feel burned if they can't put together a decent AI. Who knows, maybe I'll even find someone to try out online play... That's assuming that the game flows pretty fast once you've done the initial setup and all. The UI is a little odd, but it is (mostly) well thought out, and has some pretty nice customization features that help make getting around easier. The video tutorials are really well done so far, though he either lives by a hospital or is an really bad area of Hawaii ;-) At least I think that's the developer doing the videos...
I ordered as well, gods help me.
Just for kicks, as it's a game I'm not really interested in, I created a dummy order to see how much it would cost ,with shipping and maps: NZ$296! $201 without the maps. You would really have to love the genre to get that.
Quote from: smittyohio on November 12, 2013, 06:35:37 PM
I caved... but I wouldn't have if i didn't live in the States. I'm hoping to get enough enjoyment out of it solitaire that I don't feel burned if they can't put together a decent AI. Who knows, maybe I'll even find someone to try out online play... That's assuming that the game flows pretty fast once you've done the initial setup and all. The UI is a little odd, but it is (mostly) well thought out, and has some pretty nice customization features that help make getting around easier. The video tutorials are really well done so far, though he either lives by a hospital or is an really bad area of Hawaii ;-) At least I think that's the developer doing the videos...
If you don't get enough out of it, I'll buy it off you for $30 ;)
Judge your resolve to delay or not buy the game is particularly strong this time around. Looks like the shipping issue is a big factor for you.
For me shipping is not an issue because that is a standard price to pay when you live in the "Far East".
I have realized that the lack of fog of war and highly random results would make for interesting solo games.
Finally, I made a quick survey in Matrix forums and have determined that there is a decent user base in my timezone. These would be the Australians. Australia is the home of ADG after all.
As for the price, total including shipping is still below my expectation of $200
mmm...I thought it might be a good idea to read the AARs - get a feel for the game, but the more I see some of the mechanics and the graphics the more I would like to own the game.
Having said that - reading one AAR over there, one motorised division was wiped out in a turn when attacking Poland. Sometimes I'm not sure I grasp the scale. I mean...how long/how much does it cost to recoup a division?
Anyway...I'll continue reading. If I hold out until March next year, it'll be a miracle of biblical proportions!
Well looks like there's a shipping backlog.
That's the trouble with physical copies. :/
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3464877
That's ok- I'll just load the PDFs on my iPad for now. I'm starting to regret not springing for the map pack though it's not like I have any immediate need for the maps. I don't even have a wall big enough to display them all.
The game has two-month turns. If memory serves, in the board game, it took six months for a motorized division to be rebuilt, if you choose to spend the build points to reconstitute it.
Michael
Quote from: JudgeDredd on November 13, 2013, 05:18:13 AM
mmm...I thought it might be a good idea to read the AARs - get a feel for the game, but the more I see some of the mechanics and the graphics the more I would like to own the game.
Having said that - reading one AAR over there, one motorised division was wiped out in a turn when attacking Poland. Sometimes I'm not sure I grasp the scale. I mean...how long/how much does it cost to recoup a division?
Anyway...I'll continue reading. If I hold out until March next year, it'll be a miracle of biblical proportions!
Thanks.
I've read a couple of AARs over there now - and I'm so glad I did. It's made me rethink wanting the game. It just really doesn't look like it would be fun to play solitaire for me. On top of that, even though it's a complex boardgame turned into a computer game - it still looks VERY complicated. I have a sneaking suspicion this would be on my "Merry Christmas" thread next year (assuming there would be one ;) )
No - I read the AARs, thought about the scale, thought about the rules, complexity, the manuals that require reading, thinking about how quickly those lovely manuals are going to be outdated and thought it just isn't going to fit with me.
I didn't even bother with a smaller scale game like WitE and I gave WitP a go and didn't get on with that either...how the hell am I going to deal with a game this size, with this complexity with no AI?
So last night I decided to make an effort and play WitE. I loaded the Road to Minsk 3 turn battle again - just to remind myself of the mechanics.
So - I think what I'm saying is - rather than buying this on a whim or on impulse, I've done some research and decided it's not for me...that makes me sad to admit - but it saved me £120 - and that is a VERY good thing!
JudgeDredd,
I'm pretty much where you are with this. I would love to play a turn based WW2 game that covers the entire world but just trying to follow the AARs confuses me. I don't mind the no AI part since I'll play solo anyway. I'm actually thinking maybe I should get Strategic Command Global Conflict instead for my WW2 fix.
Quote from: JudgeDredd on November 14, 2013, 06:30:41 AM
Thanks.
I've read a couple of AARs over there now - and I'm so glad I did. It's made me rethink wanting the game. It just really doesn't look like it would be fun to play solitaire for me. On top of that, even though it's a complex boardgame turned into a computer game - it still looks VERY complicated. I have a sneaking suspicion this would be on my "Merry Christmas" thread next year (assuming there would be one ;) )
No - I read the AARs, thought about the scale, thought about the rules, complexity, the manuals that require reading, thinking about how quickly those lovely manuals are going to be outdated and thought it just isn't going to fit with me.
I didn't even bother with a smaller scale game like WitE and I gave WitP a go and didn't get on with that either...how the hell am I going to deal with a game this size, with this complexity with no AI?
So last night I decided to make an effort and play WitE. I loaded the Road to Minsk 3 turn battle again - just to remind myself of the mechanics.
So - I think what I'm saying is - rather than buying this on a whim or on impulse, I've done some research and decided it's not for me...that makes me sad to admit - but it saved me £120 - and that is a VERY good thing!
we need a posse, and quick............
somewhere out there JD is tied in a cupboard and in grave danger, i suspect this is Mrs JD who is right now snipping up his credit cards and advancing on the aforementioned cupboard with the scissors
lol
I can show restraint! Can't I ???
Wow I'm only at page 65 of the 288 page (first) manual and there are so many nuggets of information on how play well like statistical results, optimal number of units, faction strategies.
It is very overwhelming fascinating at the same time. Too many things to remember. With this kind of content, Manual 1 and Manual 2 may stand the test of time. But Manual 3 "Rules as Coded" will surely be outdated in due time.
I have read some of the in-game picture tutorials but there are still more to go. Then on to the interactive and video tutorials.
Are there any introductory gameplay videos online that we can watch or are they only available with the game?
Quote from: JudgeDredd on November 14, 2013, 07:11:09 AM
lol
I can show restraint! Can't I ???
I've been expecting you to buckle like a belt. Then I could give you shit after purchasing a game that isn't really a game. That would be the ultimate buckle! :P
;D
The "extreme" pull I generally feel for a newly released game is now gone. PHEW!
I don't mind telling you - that was one hell of a week! ::)
On previous experience this now means my money is saved and I am unlikely to purchase the game. Only if I read about it would I likely change my mind and buy it. But given I don't generally read up on games before purchasing on release day, that is very unlikely. As time goes by, I also begin to think about the impact of the cost too. I think I'm safely out the woods now.
So I would like to take this opportunity to thank Matrix/Slitherine for listening to their "stats" and reading their "figures" properly and understanding that none of their income comes from impulse purchasing. They certainly seem to have a grip on the market...they actually really seem to know their stuff.
And here was me, all these years, thinking I knew different, throwing money at them on release day for games I didn't want. So thank you Matrix/Slitherine for saving my money and not taking advantage of my illness.
Quote from: JudgeDredd on November 15, 2013, 02:47:59 AM
So I would like to take this opportunity to thank Matrix/Slitherine for listening to their "stats" and reading their "figures" properly and understanding that none of their income comes from impulse purchasing. They certainly seem to have a grip on the market...they actually really seem to know their stuff.
And here was me, all these years, thinking I knew different, throwing money at them on release day for games I didn't want. So thank you Matrix/Slitherine for saving my money and not taking advantage of my illness.
LOL!
High prices for unfinished games = JD repellant?
;D
How's it going people? It's been over a week now and nothing here and very little over there... ;D
It's going fine for me. I'm posting at Matrix when I have questions and making slow but steady progress. I wish I had more time to play it as I'm sure things would go faster, but I have to do my For the People (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/833/for-the-people) AAR for my website. There are always too many great games to play. It's tough being a gamer. :'(
Quote from: Ubercat on November 18, 2013, 12:29:46 PM
It's going fine for me. I'm posting at Matrix when I have questions and making slow but steady progress. I wish I had more time to play it as I'm sure things would go faster, but I have to do my For the People (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/833/for-the-people) AAR for my website. There are always too many great games to play. It's tough being a gamer. :'(
I'm enjoying it also, which surprises me a little.. I was a little worried I'd thrown money down the drain. However, i've enjoyed watching the tutorials, reading the ones in the game, doing the interactive ones... The manual leaves a little to be desired, but I think that's because it follows the boardgame one pretty closely. It's not that the information isn't there, it's just that it's not always all that clear, and sometimes you come up with questions that aren't explained until 40 pages later. Ground combat is pretty simple. Air, not too bad. Naval is where it gets tricky, especially with naval air, plus all the optional rules, a lot of which give the game the fun chrome.
That said, he did a wonderful job making information available in the game, and the interface actually is pretty good for this big of a game. A little quirky at times, and rough, but good. My biggest complaint so far is that it's a little.... clinical. Sterile at times, if you know what i mean. I really could use some polishing from that standpoint. But there's a lot of game here, and I'm shocked that it might actually be interesting solo. ("Fun" might be too strong of a word, unless you're really into solitaire play like this). But I don't regret the purchase, and might even try to find an online game with another n00b at some point.
Quote from: JudgeDredd on November 18, 2013, 11:40:06 AM
How's it going people? It's been over a week now and nothing here and very little over there... ;D
Just went to the Matrix forums myself and found very little posted so far. Not sure why? The game intrigues me though it is way outside my affordable price range. I haven't felt this way since the boardgame heyday of the late 70's-early 80's when the 'monster' games became very popular.
Quote from: Rayfer on November 18, 2013, 01:16:15 PM
Quote from: JudgeDredd on November 18, 2013, 11:40:06 AM
How's it going people? It's been over a week now and nothing here and very little over there... ;D
Just went to the Matrix forums myself and found very little posted so far. Not sure why? The game intrigues me though it is way outside my affordable price range. I haven't felt this way since the boardgame heyday of the late 70's-early 80's when the 'monster' games became very popular.
If i had to guess, it's because people are muddling through the tutorials and manuals, and are hesitant to flood the forums with questions. I know personally I've got lots of questions, but I'm trying to solve them myself before going there. Or maybe it just didn't really sell well outside of the people stalking the forums for years who already know how to play.
The game really does start to make sense after playing around a bit, and I think the complexity will quickly shift from "how do i even play" to "how do i play well". I have a lot of respect for how much effort Steve put into translating this badboy. Soooooooooooo many phases and subphases. It's a coders nightmare.
Edit: on a seperate note, the AI is going to be a real challenge for this game, which is probably why it's an optional, paid (important key). future add-on. If it never sees the light of day, no one can say they didn't get exactly what they paid for. Also, I can see why PBEM is going to be a nightmare. Very very chatty play sequences.
Quote from: Rayfer on November 18, 2013, 01:16:15 PM
Quote from: JudgeDredd on November 18, 2013, 11:40:06 AM
How's it going people? It's been over a week now and nothing here and very little over there... ;D
Just went to the Matrix forums myself and found very little posted so far. Not sure why? The game intrigues me though it is way outside my affordable price range. I haven't felt this way since the boardgame heyday of the late 70's-early 80's when the 'monster' games became very popular.
'cos the same numpties are still locking horns with people that want an answer why Matrix forced manuals and therefore excessive shipping costs onto people.
And here was me thinking they'd want to play the game they just blew $160 on! ;D
How many posts does it take for it to be an active forum?
Quote from: challerain on November 18, 2013, 07:53:38 PM
How many posts does it take for it to be an active forum?
Btw, they did start a new forum for n00bs like myself: WIF School -- > http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tt.asp?forumid=1336 (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tt.asp?forumid=1336)
Look what I found on my doorstep when I ran home for my lunch break:
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi747.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fxx120%2FStaggerwing%2Fphoto_zps1cbd7376.jpg&hash=12e64745ff9dc208759d497eba643da9d4a953b3)
Quote from: Staggerwing on November 19, 2013, 06:38:20 PM
Look what I found on my doorstep when I ran home for my lunch break:
(snip)
Woot! Mine came today also! Even higher quality than I expected.
According to my tracking info...should receive mine on Thursday....but doesn't matter, darn xmas gift where I can't look at or play until then:(
Maybe hope for you yet jd.....seems like some kind of announcement next week on physical vs download option. It will be interesting to see what they do, if anything.
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3476048
Thanks for the heads up GR but I'm afraid as an impulse buyer that ship has sailed.
1. No AI
2. AI but "paid for" expansion (with NO idea how much....could be another £100 - who knows what Matrix/Slitherine will charge except them and their figures)
3. No Fog of War
4. A HUGE time sink
5. There are some massive knobs on that forum - people I seriously doubt I'd have anything to do with on "internet" life let alone real life
The second post on that announcement is telling Erik not to change his stance and there's others who insist the game is a boardgame...even though it's a computer game!
Not people I would choose to mix with
6. I'm sick to death of the use of "chanting", "crying", "screaming", "stamping their feet" etc to describe people requesting a change to the ridiculous stance Matrix/Slitherine took on this game
7. My problem isn't the price of the product but the shipment costs...not something that I would escape as I still want the manuals...unless the option they come up with was to buy the game and have the manuals delivered free of charge or have them delivered when the euro depot opens
Those are 7 reasons why the game just doesn't fit.
I really, really do not "take" to the community that bought the game. I've read WAY too many posts over there from people who clearly don't leave their room and I wouldn't like to buy a game where I'd be reliant to play it on people like that.
Don't get me wrong - as an impulse buyer I was feeling the pull, especially with those beautiful manuals...but Matrix/Slitherine aren't interested in people who chuck money at them (which is awful nice of them).
Given the reasons above, I do believe I have dodged the preverbial bullet.
I already started playing Barbarossa mini scenario and I'm getting beaten badly on both sides (I'm lousy playing the Germans and Soviets).
I still have to learn to distinguish between good attacks and stupid attacks.
I am not giving up on you yet jd:). But your points are good and some that I especially had at the start about no ai. To be honest, I would not have purchased myself if I did not receive this as a gift. Perfect definition of a gift for me.....a want that I likely would never buy myself.
But as a fellow impulse buyer, I am impressed you made it through the most difficult time which is the first week after release. If we really sit back and wait to hear about games a little more versus immediately jumping in, would save us some money and time for games we likely will hardly play:)
I gotta start showing that same kind of restraint....
I've learned to live with no AI. So it's all a matter of making the best move depending on the situation.
Because the game has no Fog of War, there is no element of surprise that may be negated when you play hot-seat against yourself.
Anyway, just wait a while and AI will be coming anyway. Whenever that is.
Quote from: jomni on November 23, 2013, 06:29:01 AM
I've learned to live with no AI. So it's all a matter of making the best move depending on the situation.
Because the game has no Fog of War, there is no element of surprise that may be negated when you play hot-seat against yourself.
Anyway, just wait a while and AI will be coming anyway. Whenever that is.
Just put yourself in a daze when you play the other side.. You know like when you try and look at those ole Magic Pictures and your slightly cross your eyes.. It will be like self made FOG.
Just out of curiosity, I googled "world in flames solitiare" and found an old FAQ/Q&A for the boardgame version. In it is a small section on "Solitaire Play". I'll copy/paste here for the heck of it. I particularly noted the part about "not playing the game with less than 4 players" part:
QuoteSolitaire Play
Q WI>I noted that on the WiF deluxe edition box it says it is highly suited to solitaire play. I haven't bought it, but would like to know to what extent t is true, and also how much space is required for play. I realise the full game would be beyond me due to lack of time/space, but are there small 'one board scenarios playable solo in a reasonable amount of time and space?
WI>Thanks in advance for any help
Hi Colin,
This has been the claim as long as I've been playing WiF. While I know of people playing solitaire WiF, I think claiming it is highly suitable is absurd. Frankly, I don't like playing with fewer than 4 people, and prefer 6 players.
Russ Craft
Ans: I don't understand how someone can play WiF solitaire this has always been a riddle to me. As in many other strategy games you have to exploit the mistakes the other do. Like the US player did in our current game when he found an unoccupied city in Japan to stage a second invasion and build another beachhead. Had the Japanese player known the plans of the US player he could have placed a unit there.
Playing with yourself leaves out the surprise of unforeseen enemy actions and the fun negotiating part (like with peace, lend lease etc.). We usually play with four, sometimes five players. I have played with two players only but that isn't half as funny.
Ans: I know lots of people who play WiF solitaire. Highly solitaire means all bits are face-up to all players. Thus you have "perfect" information on dispositions. What you don't have "perfect" info on is weather, length of turn etc., which is always handled contemporaneously by a die roll, so no-one has advance or hidden warning of any of these critical rolls. Only US entry, and Garrison ratios will be known to the enemy that should not be known, and you can even devise your own house rules for these events that still lead to an element of tension (e.g. you can't look at US entry until you as the US wants to do something, at which time you turn over the chits one at a time (1939 first, then 1943, then 1942, 1941 and finally 1940) until the right amount has been reached).
Thus, with none or minimal changes, one player can handle both sides with minimum down-time. You will not often "trick" yourself, to be sure, but sometimes you will think of some operation on the spur of the moment, which you as your opponent had not foresaw in that impulse. In fact, I enjoy a good game of WiF solitaire myself from time to time. You wouldn't believe what a refreshing change it is to play someone competent, after having to play with Greg for 13 years:-) Date: 05/03/98
I played it a few times solitaire many, many years ago when I first bought it (1988? I can't recall.) But it didn't hold my interest. I was more into TR. Never got into any of the expansions for WiF.
I love that they've taken the angle they have on the manuals. It's good to know there's still someone there interested in producing manuals well. Hopefully they pay well whomever took care of that, unlike in the past.
I have zero interest in sinking any time into this, though. The price is way too prohibitive for me, and the time required to get into it again is just as much. Maybe a few years down the road, but right now, no way.
Seems there's still no word from Matrix re the solution - given Erik mentioned looking into the issue two weeks ago!
AND...come on! It's awful quiet in here - so I'm going to go ahead and assume the game is just too big for all you lot - but you're too hardcore to admit it and be ridiculed by your fellow grog peers.
So - this is a one time offer - £10 to anyone who PM's me to offer me their game. I'm not going to buy more than one - so first come first serve and I promise your fellow grogheads will not find out about it! ;D
Quote from: JudgeDredd on November 28, 2013, 11:45:51 AM
Seems there's still no word from Matrix re the solution - given Erik mentioned looking into the issue two weeks ago!
AND...come on! It's awful quiet in here - so I'm going to go ahead and assume the game is just too big for all you lot - but you're too hardcore to admit it and be ridiculed by your fellow grog peers.
So - this is a one time offer - £10 to anyone who PM's me to offer me their game. I'm not going to buy more than one - so first come first serve and I promise your fellow grogheads will not find out about it! ;D
you want it so bad!!!!
you would get it and not tell us after all this
I still have a month before I get to play....the box is nicely wrapped under the tree to torment me....darn Xmas gifts!!!
but youve downloaded the digital copy and played the tutorials yeah?
I am over the "urge"
But the game still intrigues me. There are mechanics in the game I think I really like...but still...solo play and an expensive AI module still does put me off and there's zero chance of me buying it with £30+ on postage.
Now - here's the thing. If I am going to buy this, it needs to be "soon". The window on that is closing. I will definitely get to the stage where £100 for a game is ridiculous and I won't buy. But here's the thing...one of the things stopping me buying it is no AI. But I can guarantee - without a shadow of doubt - that there's NO WAY I'll get this game when they release the AI...because then you are talking £100 + AI module - and I simply will not spend that on a game.
So - the sooner they sort out netplay and pbem and the sooner they get a distribution centre in place which means I can get my manuals BUT I won't be paying 1/3rd of what the game costs me in postage - then the more likely I will be to buying it.
And if they get that all in place and I still don't buy - then it'll be a goner. I just won't pay £100+AI module. That kind of seems a bit daft because the likelihood is if I had the game before the AI module, I would buy the AI module...therefore spending the amount anyway. But buying it in installments is less of a mental block for me.
Still...£10 to the first one to give in and admit he's bitten off more than he can chew. £10 and for that you recoup some money AND save your dignity.
GR - you're excluded for obvious reasons until next year - but I expect to see impressions and AARs from you (as I do the rest). ;D
Quote from: undercovergeek on November 28, 2013, 12:05:54 PM
but youve downloaded the digital copy and played the tutorials yeah?
I know - I tried explaining to him but he's taking this "gift" thing way too seriously!
Quote from: JudgeDredd on November 28, 2013, 12:13:44 PM
Quote from: undercovergeek on November 28, 2013, 12:05:54 PM
but youve downloaded the digital copy and played the tutorials yeah?
I know - I tried explaining to him but he's taking this "gift" thing way too seriously!
Yeah, since it is a gift from my kids the guilt factor is tripled:). I have been tempted though.....
Judge should avoid looking at this thread for his own good.
Take a look at post 76 from Erik...very interesting read. Looks like more bugs than imagined. Those who did not buy might have made a wise choice. Part of me wishes there were refund options.
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3495246&mpage=3
Buggy net play. No PBEM, no Ai.
Looks like it's all solitaire. :(
But I actually enjoyed the solitaire experience so far. Which is quite surprising.
have i missed the 'we know youre all upset about been forced to buy physical, were having an emergency meeting and we'll get right back to you' conclusion?
Quote from: undercovergeek on December 15, 2013, 08:04:14 PM
have i missed the 'we know youre all upset about been forced to buy physical, were having an emergency meeting and we'll get right back to you' conclusion?
Erik stated a little while ago he had a death in the family and information was still pending...no ETA at this point that I am aware.
The gist I got from his post was that the game was good, for everyone to quit whining, but we're really gosh-darn sorry you're upset that it's not working the way you want it to.
I'm patient. I've been waiting for a good PC port of this game for 16 years and I can wait till it's fixed. I'm happy that Steve is *probably* finally getting paid for all his hard work. The man went unpaid for 9 years to make this happen; 12 hours+ a day. If every penny that the game has brought in were going in Steve's pocket, I'll bet it still wouldn't be enough for what 9 years of a good programmers work is worth.
The man is a saint as far as I'm concerned.
Everyone - and I mean everyone - knows that buying a game out the trap door is going to have bugs. The number and depth of those bugs varies dramatically. Some are game stoppers, others are wee annoyances.
Having said that - the price of this product - in total - and the number of bugs present and with no AI and no working way to play against each other is simply staggering. Lest we forget - this product, for me to purchase, was £130 iirc...and what would I get for that money? A game with a lot of bugs and worse, some game stoppers. On top of that - the only way I'd be able to play this is on my own.
That is not a great place to be. It's just as well they sold those physical manuals so that the people that bought it feel they have something to get on with.
Having said that - what's more staggering is the purchasers will to defend the stance. Some of the comments on that thread defy belief that they were written by anyone outside the "establishment".
Still...be that as it may - it's still a product that still calls to me from time to time. But there's NO CHANCE I'm buying it in that state - and given the AI is later next year, I won't be buying it next year because I have absolutely no faith a decent "relatively" bug free AI will be released.
This - again - is not a dig at the developer and they shouldn't really be directed at the developer. It's the beta testers and the publishers that should take the hit. Yeah sure - beta testers weren't involved in the release date and they likely reported things that were not going to be fixed for release. But still...netplay screwed? I mean - it was limited with only two players anyway - now that's been reduced to 1!
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on December 15, 2013, 09:48:11 PM
The gist I got from his post was that the game was good, for everyone to quit whining, but we're really gosh-darn sorry you're upset that it's not working the way you want it to.
Aww man come on...... there's a massive difference between working the way you want it to and you know...... working
Quote from: Ubercat on December 15, 2013, 10:04:11 PM
I'm patient. I've been waiting for a good PC port of this game for 16 years and I can wait till it's fixed. I'm happy that Steve is *probably* finally getting paid for all his hard work. The man went unpaid for 9 years to make this happen; 12 hours+ a day. If every penny that the game has brought in were going in Steve's pocket, I'll bet it still wouldn't be enough for what 9 years of a good programmers work is worth.
The man is a saint as far as I'm concerned.
I don't really understand that sentiment.
I applaud his effort and tenaciousness but at the risk of sounding apathetic - so what? He's doing something he wants to do. Not everyone is that lucky.
I have absolutely no idea how many hours the guy worked on this and absolutely no interest either. And if that is the case, wouldn't it be fair to expect the thing to work as designed?
I totally understand why fans of the boardgame like yourself might be more forgiving - but that certainly shouldn't need to be the case. The product was forced out with known issues and at great expense.
My biggest concern with the state of things isn't the fact there are bugs since every game has them to some degree, it's just the continued bill of goods we kept getting sold that we are buying some superior 'premium' product based on the large costs and the company saying we are. What exactly are we getting more of with these 'premium' titles? They seem to have the same amount of bugs (if not more) as other games and the same support. In fact I think the support by the company has been less. When other games are released like distant worlds, it seems like Erik and the company are constantly posting and answering questions in that forum. For wif, I don't think they have posted much of anything. I do think the developer has at least been active, but it comes across as a one man show for a 'premium' product.
So again, besides the fact this was a huge board game conversion and has been in development for 10 years, why is this a 'premium' game again? Doesn't feel like it to me at this point based on feedback in the forums, since I can't play myself until Xmas.
Don't worry GR - it'll all be fixed by the time you get yer mitts on it :P
Quote from: JudgeDredd on December 16, 2013, 05:05:39 AM
Don't worry GR - it'll all be fixed by the time you get yer mitts on it :P
Maybe if my wife gives it to me 'next' christmas:) it seems like this game is minimally months away from being where it probably should. I am not a person that often asks for refunds, I usually just accept things as is, but in cases like this, makes me really wish games had a better refund policy, especially when you can't try it first and you play large prices. Just another lesson learned not to buy these games right away, which I have to get better at doing.
I honestly think if you were to request a refund Matrix would consider it. They have admitted themselves the issues are worse than they imagined.
I would've thought a voucher for those that bought would be the least they could do - instead of excuses about "scale of development" or how long it took to make!
Quote from: JudgeDredd on December 16, 2013, 05:25:20 AM
I honestly think if you were to request a refund Matrix would consider it. They have admitted themselves the issues are worse than they imagined.
I would've thought a voucher for those that bought would be the least they could do - instead of excuses about "scale of development" or how long it took to make!
I think what complicates a refund in this case is the physical manuals. I can't see them paying us to return those, but I could be wrong. Maybe a nice compromise is that when the paid ai module cones out, people who invested early get for free. If that was the case, I would probably hang on.
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on December 16, 2013, 05:03:55 AM
My biggest concern with the state of things isn't the fact there are bugs since every game has them to some degree, it's just the continued bill of goods we kept getting sold that we are buying some superior 'premium' product based on the large costs and the company saying we are. What exactly are we getting more of with these 'premium' titles? They seem to have the same amount of bugs (if not more) as other games and the same support. In fact I think the support by the company has been less. When other games are released like distant worlds, it seems like Erik and the company are constantly posting and answering questions in that forum. For wif, I don't think they have posted much of anything. I do think the developer has at least been active, but it comes across as a one man show for a 'premium' product.
So again, besides the fact this was a huge board game conversion and has been in development for 10 years, why is this a 'premium' game again? Doesn't feel like it to me at this point based on feedback in the forums, since I can't play myself until Xmas.
Yeah, I tend to feel the same way about this. And yet, there doesn't seem to be much flak. Can you imagine the Internet sh*tstorm that would be going on if this had been a Paradox or Battlefront release?
It is a Premium game because it is based on a Premium board game which can range from $200 to $500
Quote from: jomni on December 16, 2013, 10:19:52 PM
It is a Premium game because it is based on a Premium board game which can range from $200 to $500
I don't dispute that it's an impressive offer. The problem is that when you label something Premium, you increase people's expectations of that product by a significant amount. So when that product doesn't work properly, the disappointment also tends to be more substantial.
Quote from: Arctic Blast on December 17, 2013, 05:33:45 PM
Quote from: jomni on December 16, 2013, 10:19:52 PM
It is a Premium game because it is based on a Premium board game which can range from $200 to $500
I don't dispute that it's an impressive offer. The problem is that when you label something Premium, you increase people's expectations of that product by a significant amount. So when that product doesn't work properly, the disappointment also tends to be more substantial.
Agreed +1.....it is semantics, but when you have a high price and sell it as Premium, people are naturally going to assume the product is higher quality, support is better, etc. than their other products not labeled Premium. It seems some of their other games not labeled Premium have turned out to be more stable and enjoyable products such as Flashpoint Germany, then the premium ones and they cost a lot less. Maybe I need to stay away from anything they list as premium:)
True. Unlike cars, premium does not mean better in this case. It is just "Branded". For example, an expensive Swiss automatic watch is not as accurate and durable as a Japanese quartz watch. In fact among quartz watches that have equal level of quality, some command a higher price just because of the brand (ex. Tag Heuer). You pay for the Swiss branding and craftsmanship but it does not mean it is superior to other alternatives.
So for matrix games, if a game is tied to a very highly regarded brand, (WiF, Gary Grigsby, Harpoon, Panther Games?) then you get premium pricing.
We just have to learn to set our expectations properly as we are beginning to see a pattern here.
That's funny if WiF (the board game) is $2-300. I picked up the original in 1986 or so for about $40-50. Still have it too.
Back on track, as far as marketing is concerned, as you guys have said, if you slap a Premium label on anything you're saying it's better than a 'regular' version. Premium means additional content, for the most part - at least in my mind. You absolutely cannot have a Premium version if you don't have something to compare it to! If there's not a 'basic' WiF version to compare to the 'Premium' (I have no idea as I've not looked into this game at all), then that's disingenuous. Marketing a product as a Premium, to me, should not be done unless there's a 'basic' version that it improves on.
You certainly do pay a higher price for labels (slap a Nike label on a cheap POS shoe and the price quadruples). But, just because there's a label on it doesn't mean it's actually any better than anything else. It's all about the buyer's perspective and whether or not they think the price tag is worth it. Some people are pretty much sheep when it comes to buying a certain brand, and that's why good marketing people get paid so well, to keep up that perception of their BS. If it works, they buy it, obviously. And if they buy enough of it, the seller might jack the price up on not just that, but all their products that sell well. One thing about Matrix is, they certainly sell a huge range of good game products, but their prices are ridiculously high and don't seem to go on sale all that often. There's games years old on their site that haven't seen a price break. While I complain about that, it's actually good business practice if people continue to shell out that money for their products, so I can't disparage them from that standpoint. From my wallet's standpoint, though, I certainly can. :(
did someone say something bad about swiss watches?
the same can be said about a Bentley compared to a Subaru. you either go class & style or you buy affordable quality.
that's why i got a Casio watch. cool as hell but doesn't make me very attractive to all the hot female bankers around here.
I'd say 'premium' does not have to stand for additional content. Premium stands for top quality or luxury in my view.
Quote from: Yskonyn on December 19, 2013, 06:51:49 AM
I'd say 'premium' does not have to stand for additional content. Premium stands for top quality or luxury in my view.
+1
Quote from: JudgeDredd on December 19, 2013, 06:58:07 AM
Quote from: Yskonyn on December 19, 2013, 06:51:49 AM
I'd say 'premium' does not have to stand for additional content. Premium stands for top quality or luxury in my view.
+1
That is my thoughts too....when I hear premium, means we are getting the best of the best, including quality and post support. Typically you do pay a higher cost for it, but in most cases the product is supposed to live up to that label...of course it does not always happen that way.
By the way for those interested, I believe I saw a post in the official forums from Erik that a comment/decision on the physical products is expected this week (he posted on 12/17).
I saw his post. I'm watching - but god alone knows why. :-\
There are way too many bugs in the game at the moment and with no AI, no working netplay to speak of and an expensive AI when it does come, this boat has sailed for me.
I think (read hope) I am just staying interested to see what the outcome is - as I was initially interested.
Quote from: JudgeDredd on December 19, 2013, 07:20:45 AM
I saw his post. I'm watching - but god alone knows why. :-\
There are way too many bugs in the game at the moment and with no AI, no working netplay to speak of and an expensive AI when it does come, this boat has sailed for me.
I think (read hope) I am just staying interested to see what the outcome is - as I was initially interested.
Yep. If I didn't make the purchase right away for my xmas gift (stupid me), I wouldn't make the purchase until the current version is clearly stable. I am not too upset about it since it is a gift and I don't feel I wasted my personal money, would have gotten some useless gift anyway:) I hope to use the next year until hopefully an AI is available to really understand the rules, that is about it.
Well JD, I think at the end of the day you made the right move in holding off on this game....at least for now.
Got the game for Xmas and really haven't felt compelled enough to really give it much of a try right now for a number of reasons....
- Been following the Matrix forums and just seems like there is one issue after another being reported...hard to want to jump in when a game is under change like that.
- I just fired up the game to see what it looked like and the map is really great looking....BUT....seems like a lot of different windows/forms load that really confuses the user interface. Just sat there with a dumb look on my face as to what to do.
- Although I knew this heading in, not sure I fully grasped how much you really have to know this game before jumping in....going to have to spend a ton of time learning the rules, reading manuals, and watching the tutorials....this might turn out to be too big of a monster for me in the end.
I will say the manuals are very nice and I am actually looking forward to reading them...been a long time since I sat down and read a war game manual. Even if I never play the game, I actually think reading them will be entertaining in its own right. However, don't get me wrong, I still don't believe the physical user manuals should have been forced on people. Its even kind of funny that in the opening pages of the manual the author talks about how printed manuals get out dated pretty quickly and that errata is required. Kind of states the argument of having physical manuals for something that might change often. Regardless, I personally would have still gotten the physical manuals, but it should have been a personal choice.
I am not completely throwing in the towel.....I'll just be taking my time in learning the rules and systems until an AI module is available, likely trying to learn through solitaire play. Not at all angry with my purchase since I knew it was going to be a monster, although I didn't think it would have the amount of reported issues, especially for a game labeled as "Premium" and the forums are a very quiet place compared to their other products.
Only time will tell...
I still look at it with great fondness. I love the map and chit art...but I too am watching the Matrix forums and it seems the only really active threads are in the Tech Support forum.
as an impulse buyer, I certainly think I dodged a bullet. I have no idea how much the AI add-on will be, but it would likely be expensive...so I'm pretty sure I'm out the running for this totally. I wouldn't discount a price of £40+ for the AI...and with the game already costing £130, I'd just never pay that.
seems plenty of people are paying up though if the Buy Now count is anything to go by...that's nearly at 1000
I think the people that bought this ought to get the AI add-on for free...I really do.
anyway I hope it turns out good for you...but when netplay is working I wouldn't bother looking for me in the lobby.
I really hope you get to enjoy this bad boy.
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on December 30, 2013, 06:53:08 PM
....this might turn out to be too big of a monster for me in the end.
I wouldn't give it up that fast. It's always been my experience that it's much easier to learn a new game from an opponent that already knows how to play. I'd guess that you can probably get by with merely skimming the rules rather than giving them a concentrated study if you hook up with someone that doesn't mind teaching, or even enjoys it.
I'm not volunteering (yet) I'm still a newb myself, and Netplay doesn't appear to be ready for prime time.
Quote from: JudgeDredd on December 30, 2013, 07:26:33 PM
I think the people that bought this ought to get the AI add-on for free...I really do.
I tend to agree....but I doubt that will happen. It will be interesting enough to see if they actually ever release one in a reasonable time frame.
Keeping my fingers crossed for eventually becoming a classic for me...
Quote from: Ubercat on December 30, 2013, 08:22:13 PM
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on December 30, 2013, 06:53:08 PM
....this might turn out to be too big of a monster for me in the end.
I wouldn't give it up that fast. It's always been my experience that it's much easier to learn a new game from an opponent that already knows how to play. I'd guess that you can probably get by with merely skimming the rules rather than giving them a concentrated study if you hook up with someone that doesn't mind teaching, or even enjoys it.
I'm not volunteering (yet) I'm still a newb myself, and Netplay doesn't appear to be ready for prime time.
Not giving up yet:) I can't imagine playing this game against an opponent based on the time commitment and the need to have a live opponent....my schedule is way to unpredictable to handle most MP games and can't even remotely see how it would work for this game.
I'll read all the manuals and tutorials and go from there...part of me is excited to learn it this way, as long as it doesn't turn into rocket science:)
It may seem daunting based on the manual but once you play by yourself, the program actually holds your hand and clearly says what you can and cannot do at a particular impulse / phase. But there are many strategic decisions to make and that is one that makes the game hard.
I think you've just got to look at some of the threads over there to realise how big a task this game is going to be.
For example - this
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3509974
I mean - WOW! Headache! :D
I don't sympathise with matrix - they said they could deliver the game and now its their promise but having read an aar or two and the thread about allocating ship damage I simply cannot see how you can implement a pbem engine for the game
Quote from: undercovergeek on December 31, 2013, 04:14:15 AM
I don't sympathise with matrix - they said they could deliver the game and now its their promise but having read an aar or two and the thread about allocating ship damage I simply cannot see how you can implement a pbem engine for the game
I think the plan is that there will be a mini-AI where the non-phasing player gives pre-set reactions and priorities instead of actually switching players per reaction.
This will only work once the AI code is finished.
^ I thought they were looking to implement PBEM waaay before the AI was complete?
If so, then I'd guess they would be modularising the AI, creating AI routines that can be called on in PBEM but can also be re-used when the full AI is being implemented. That's how I would code it anyway.
It still looks to be a huge pita - even if they do get PBEM going. I just can't see how it's going to be any good. Even if modules are created where the phasing player can make selections and decisions based on certain scenarios, I can see huge cries of how it's not flexibile enough.
You've only got to look at Empire in Arms for, from what I gather, a failed attempt to implement a board game using the computer. It may have come on since I last read (going over to check now) but on release and for years after, things just weren't playing out well...partly because of bugs, partly because of limitations in what could be implemented and partly because of the complex way the board game played.
Yep, I don't think these will be small undertakings and I was cautiously if they can pull it off...and if they can pull it off, how long it will actually take them to do it. With all the bugs on release, it surely has delayed things even more.
Quote from: JudgeDredd on December 31, 2013, 05:53:44 AM
^ I thought they were looking to implement PBEM waaay before the AI was complete?
If so, then I'd guess they would be modularising the AI, creating AI routines that can be called on in PBEM but can also be re-used when the full AI is being implemented. That's how I would code it anyway.
Yeah may be done that way too.
Looks like maybe an announcement this week about the physical copies and such....according to this should be discussed this week.
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3506033
Thanks GR.
The game is nowhere near worth the asking price. From what I've seen on the Tech Support thread, it's contains comprehensive problems. Almost 400 threads in 2 months? On top of that, Netplay was touted to be fixed (they hoped) within a week of release iirc.
I know the game had long been in development. I know it was important to get some money in for the dev. But a better way to do that would've been to offer people "early access" beta version, with a reduced cost. Then perhaps make the manuals available to people who wanted them.
For me it was always the initial layout of £130...I just couldn't stomach it. I may well have bought the game at say £60 or £70 and then picked the manuals up at a later date for another £30 to £50.
I'm not buying. Not now at the price they're asking, not until it's fixed and certainly not when there's an expensive AI waiting in the wings - which will come with it's own issues.
I'm watching with interest - but I simply cannot see how they're going to prise the money from my hands. Which is kind of sad (for them) because if they had priced it more sensibly I'd have blown up to £80 on this on release (but they know best ???).
Quote from: JudgeDredd on January 09, 2014, 02:54:17 AM
Thanks GR.
The game is nowhere near worth the asking price. From what I've seen on the Tech Support thread, it's contains comprehensive problems. Almost 400 threads in 2 months? On top of that, Netplay was touted to be fixed (they hoped) within a week of release iirc.
I know the game had long been in development. I know it was important to get some money in for the dev. But a better way to do that would've been to offer people "early access" beta version, with a reduced cost. Then perhaps make the manuals available to people who wanted them.
For me it was always the initial layout of £130...I just couldn't stomach it. I may well have bought the game and say £60 or £70 and then picked the manuals up at a later date for another £30 to £50.
I'm not buying. Not now at the price they're asking, not until it's fixed and certainly not when there's an expensive AI waiting in the wings - which will come with it's own issues.
I'm watching with interest - but I simply cannot see how they're going to prize the money from my hands. Which is kind of sad (for them) because if they had priced it more sensibly I'd have blown up to £80 on this on release (but they know best ???).
we'll never see them but id love to see the sales figures
very, very infrequently i get an urge to go over and see how its going, for whatever reason playing solitaire appeals to me, but i dont think id be too happy to get my head around some of those major rules only to find the process didnt work
Quote from: JudgeDredd on January 09, 2014, 02:54:17 AM
Thanks GR.
The game is nowhere near worth the asking price. From what I've seen on the Tech Support thread, it's contains comprehensive problems. Almost 400 threads in 2 months? On top of that, Netplay was touted to be fixed (they hoped) within a week of release iirc.
I know the game had long been in development. I know it was important to get some money in for the dev. But a better way to do that would've been to offer people "early access" beta version, with a reduced cost. Then perhaps make the manuals available to people who wanted them.
For me it was always the initial layout of £130...I just couldn't stomach it. I may well have bought the game at say £60 or £70 and then picked the manuals up at a later date for another £30 to £50.
I'm not buying. Not now at the price they're asking, not until it's fixed and certainly not when there's an expensive AI waiting in the wings - which will come with it's own issues.
I'm watching with interest - but I simply cannot see how they're going to prise the money from my hands. Which is kind of sad (for them) because if they had priced it more sensibly I'd have blown up to £80 on this on release (but they know best ???).
Yep, in hindsight I wish I didn't ask for it on Xmas, but at least not out of my gaming budget:) although I have installed it, haven't looked at for more than 5 minutes and haven't read the books yet. Too many apparent issues that unmotivate me. I hope it turns out good someday, has been a personal short term bust for me.
Looks like the announcement is set for next Tuesday, 1/14/14......no idea why the drama....just spill it! Although likely means very little to me since I already own it...unless current owners get some goodies, depending on what the announcement is:) I guess the announcement could be they aren't changing a thing:)
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3506033
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3521650
If only it was working.
A pure shame there's no mention about people who currently bought it in a pretty unworkable state and a free AI or something.
Looks to be the same $100 as the box set only without the shipping....did I read that correctly?
Quote from: Rayfer on January 14, 2014, 01:15:22 PM
Looks to be the same $100 as the box set only without the shipping....did I read that correctly?
Yep, that what I get.... $115 CAD..... still too much for me for it not working and not even any Netplay.... maybe some day when I'm retired....
Quote from: Rayfer on January 14, 2014, 01:15:22 PM
Looks to be the same $100 as the box set only without the shipping....did I read that correctly?
think thats the only way they could work it without a customer rebellion
Quote from: Barthheart on January 14, 2014, 01:25:48 PM
Quote from: Rayfer on January 14, 2014, 01:15:22 PM
Looks to be the same $100 as the box set only without the shipping....did I read that correctly?
Yep, that what I get.... $115 CAD..... still too much for me for it not working and not even any Netplay.... maybe some day when I'm retired....
I am retired but can't afford to spend that much on a single game...$100 is about my annual gaming budget!
To tell the truth, I didn't expect anything else for new customers. I fully expected it would only be reversing their decision for hard copy only.
What I DID expect was a BIG apology to those who bought the game in the state it's in and perhaps a peace offering to those.
Of course I didn't buy it and therefore wouldn't benefit from that - but I thought they might do something for people who bought it out the gate.
As far as what they are offering - at least they listened. So kudos for that. There were people on the forum saying they would pay the same just to have the DD option (no physical shipment and therefore no books but with no postage/customs charge). I was not one of them. If I was to get a "lesser" product, I would expect a price drop (in line with all their other games).
Like I said - at least they did listen.
I'm still out though.
That's pretty much the announcement I expected.... It would have been a total surprise if they also reduced the download cost, as others mention, likely would have upset existing customers. Based on the current state of the game, some might have wanted to hold off until the new distribution centers open up and for a nominal additional price could have got the books too:) knowing what I know now, I would have held off myself. However per some posts over there seems like some people immediately bought it after the news, so some people must be happy.
I would have also like to have seen refunds accepted but that would have been tough since everyone had physical manuals in their possession:)
That's too bad. I really wanted this one to be THE strategic WWII game for me. Love the look but beauty is only screen deep. :'(
Yeah - definitely postage and physical copies were an annoyance for some people.
Quote from: Sir Slash on January 14, 2014, 03:02:41 PM
That's too bad. I really wanted this one to be THE strategic WWII game for me. Love the look but beauty is only screen deep. :'(
It still can be, though it's obviously going to take some time. I've been waiting for this monster for 16 years. I can wait another few months or even a year if I have to.
Just sad the their most active part of the forum is technical support:(. Says a lot....
I wouldn't say £78 (what dd would cost me) was too expensive for a game of this size and scale. But I do think it's way too much for a broken product. And everything I've been reading tells me it's broken...at various points.
Quote from: JudgeDredd on January 14, 2014, 05:11:09 PM
I wouldn't say £78 (what dd would cost me) was too expensive for a game of this size and scale. But I do think it's way too much for a broken product. And everything I've been reading tells me it's broken...at various points.
Yep, agreed. If it turns out to be the monster everyone thought, with the ai, then really no issue with price. Just with all the current issues and complexities, I have my doubts. But keeping fingers crossed!
Seems like interesting discussions starting from a former beta tester, kind of gives the impression of some discontent behind the scenes. Who knows if really true or not and probably most testing programs don't please everyone, but still kind of interesting, especially since this game is still far from complete.
Hoping to read someday where they offer refunds for this game, but I doubt it. Just can't see playing it anytime soon.
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3592230
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on April 19, 2014, 05:18:05 AM
Seems like interesting discussions starting from a former beta tester, kind of gives the impression of some discontent behind the scenes. Who knows if really true or not and probably most testing programs don't please everyone, but still kind of interesting, especially since this game is still far from complete.
Hoping to read someday where they offer refunds for this game, but I doubt it. Just can't see playing it anytime soon.
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3592230
I'd give you a tenner for it if it was working ;)
Quote from: JudgeDredd on April 19, 2014, 05:28:40 AM
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on April 19, 2014, 05:18:05 AM
Seems like interesting discussions starting from a former beta tester, kind of gives the impression of some discontent behind the scenes. Who knows if really true or not and probably most testing programs don't please everyone, but still kind of interesting, especially since this game is still far from complete.
Hoping to read someday where they offer refunds for this game, but I doubt it. Just can't see playing it anytime soon.
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3592230
I'd give you a tenner for it if it was working ;)
That might be over paying:)
So if I'm reading right, Erik essentially says "Go on" and then others jump in about how it just ain't right? Really? I love how everyone shouts about personal freedom and the "state" sticking their beak in, then try to shut people up :D
Self appointed forum police...some of the best are over there, it has to be said. One of the very reasons I stopped posting over there.
I wasn't entirely sure what was going down. It did seem t me the guy had some "authority" doing the testing, and then was getting slowly rubbed out...or at least overlooked.
Quote from: JudgeDredd on April 19, 2014, 06:40:29 AM
So if I'm reading right, Erik essentially says "Go on" and then others jump in about how it just ain't right? Really? I love how everyone shouts about personal freedom and the "state" sticking their beak in, then try to shut people up :D
Self appointed forum police...some of the best are over there, it has to be said. One of the very reasons I stopped posting over there.
I wasn't entirely sure what was going down. It did seem t me the guy had some "authority" doing the testing, and then was getting slowly rubbed out...or at least overlooked.
Seems that way....what I find interesting and I kind of wanted to know, did any of the testers really think this game was ready to be released? Based on the issues identified immediately after release, seems like there would have been a lot of warning signs not to release...I know game companies don't always take the advice of testers and release anyways, but I always hate to hear that since I hope they have their customers best interest at heart.
Given the bugs I've read about, and how fast they showed up for people who bought the game - literally within hours of release - I cannot for the life of me think that they didn't know.
I think they knew. I think they knew in advance but they took the decision to release it anyway, thinking they would be able to deliver a fix. Erik has said as much I believe.
But that Netplay bug was going to be fixed within a week. That's what the original post about netplay stated.
So I think they knew there were bugs and bugs that stop you playing the game as designed, but they thought they'd fix them quicker.
This game intrigued me, though I would never pay that much for any game. I've been reading the AAR's and find that, apart from any bugs and stuff that doesn't work, it seems to be a very, very, very complicated game. The AAR posters go one for endless pages and screenshots for just one turn setup. This might well be right up there with War in the Pacific:AE in complexity. I doubt I would ever be able to wrap my mind around it enough to play it.
Quote from: Rayfer on April 19, 2014, 08:59:18 AM
This game intrigued me, though I would never pay that much for any game. I've been reading the AAR's and find that, apart from any bugs and stuff that doesn't work, it seems to be a very, very, very complicated game. The AAR posters go one for endless pages and screenshots for just one turn setup. This might well be right up there with War in the Pacific:AE in complexity. I doubt I would ever be able to wrap my mind around it enough to play it.
That was my initial thinking...but I was extremely curious based on how most people were saying this was one of the best board games out there so I wanted to give it a chance and learn it to see if I shared the same opinion. The problem I have is it is so big and takes so long to complete, I can't imagine getting midway through the game and then finding a game-ending bug. Just totally deflates my motivation to even try and start a game.
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on April 19, 2014, 09:02:00 AM
Quote from: Rayfer on April 19, 2014, 08:59:18 AM
This game intrigued me, though I would never pay that much for any game. I've been reading the AAR's and find that, apart from any bugs and stuff that doesn't work, it seems to be a very, very, very complicated game. The AAR posters go one for endless pages and screenshots for just one turn setup. This might well be right up there with War in the Pacific:AE in complexity. I doubt I would ever be able to wrap my mind around it enough to play it.
That was my initial thinking...but I was extremely curious based on how most people were saying this was one of the best board games out there so I wanted to give it a chance and learn it to see if I shared the same opinion. The problem I have is it is so big and takes so long to complete, I can't imagine getting midway through the game and then finding a game-ending bug. Just totally deflates my motivation to even try and start a game.
LOL....most of the 'mid-game' bugs I run into in complex games are the ones in my own head. I can't count how many times I've gotten deep into ACW2 only to mentally unravel and crash and burn by jumping over into some much easier game.